Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

It's also worth bearing in mind that paraphilias are often a disorder. It should come as no surprise that a person acts in an illogical or disorder way if this is driving their behaviour.

Absolutely. Is this the reason why you felt sympathy for Freda @AlphaTransWoman ? I can't see any other reason why Freda would deserve any sympathy at all. During the debate Freda didn't listen to or engage with any of the points raised about women's rights. Instead it was a performative piece, described in Freda's own words on the copied tweet above as "art". The words in that tweet were very telling about why Freda is happy for people to continue to "slay away" (Freda's own words). Freda sounded euphoric about "fucking lesbians" and men, not remotely dysphoric at all. Similar aggression is apparent in Freda's behaviours outside of the debate, such as when Freda sent photos and messages to a disabled woman who was advocating for same-sex intimate care. Any sympathy I may feel for Freda in relation to Freda's words and actions being led by a disorder is completely overshadowed by the impact of Freda's words and actions. Just as any sympathy I may feel for Peter Tatchell and the untenable position he now finds himself in, spouting nonsense about how he can prove everyone has a gender identity because of what they are wearing, pales in to insignificance because of his harmful views on the age of consent. All Peter can prove is that he believes everyone has a gender identity. I'm not sure he did a particularly good job of proving that he did but I'll accept it at face value that this is his belief.

@Brefugee I also thought about the length of Helen's skirt in comparison with Freda's. Definitely similar, with Helen's a little longer, but both have a completely different impact from each other. It made for quite an interesting comparison like you say.

Some women wouldn't wear short skirts at formal events full-stop, some women would. Helen (and Freda) should absolutely wear what she wants. She'll be more than aware (just like Freda) that people will make assumptions based on how she presents herself. By contrast, Helen came across as professional. A key difference being that she had teamed her skirt with opaque tights rather than fishnets and when she crossed her legs it was without tipping what she has under her skirt towards the audience. Arguably she was there for the talking rather than describing her work as "art".

I've just seen this. Totally agree.
I found it a very enlightening experience watching and listening to Freda.
I absolutely accept that there are trans people out there with dysphoria, but with a few exceptions they aren't the ones doing the talking (which I obviously knew already). But seeing it play out in long form during a debate was illuminating to say the least. It was like playing Malaga Airport bingo and being able to shout "House!" well before the truncated video cut off. I've still not seen the full version.

One of the really obvious disconnect between actual women and men-who-claim-to-be-women is how relieved many of us actual women are when age makes us largely invisible to the male-sexual-gaze.

I’ve had over 30 years of cat calling and being followed down the street and it’s only just starting to die off now that I’m a few years short of 50.

Freda’s brag re: picking up random undiscerning men in fetish clubs really doesn’t impress actual women, we’ve known we can shag randos at random for years and have spent decades running the gauntlet trying to avoid said randos.

Guarantee that Freda’s male conquests are all ‘eggs’ in trans parlance anyway (future transitioners) as the GAMP to Malaga Airport pathway is real.

I felt so sorry for this women on the front row having the view of Freda up on a platform, crotch at eye level. Yuk 🤮

Weird how mention of the [redacted] sticking out of FW's fishnets are deleted.

So we must look at it but not refer to it.

Nice one MN. Top work.

Orwell quote time

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

Guarantee that Freda’s male conquests are all ‘eggs’ in trans parlance anyway (future transitioners) as the [Glorious And Marvellous Pavement] to Malaga Airport pathway is real.

Interesting. I've come across eggs before, mostly in the context of egg hunting on children's forums (Prisha, a detransitioner, did a great webinar on it) but not this new acronym beginning with a G. I hope it's a permitted acronym and that your post stays up as after a quick Google (I'll post the link below in a separate comment) I think I may now understand why Freda thinks that Freda dismantled Helen's arguments. I appreciate this may just be me catching up on my peaking journey and that others may well be there before me.
Freda's "art" had a monologue in the middle about men who like to have sex with Freda. Whenever Freda mentioned sex it was about the intercourse kind, not the classification kind. Freda even said "you can call me a man if your want". In the context of Freda's art, including Freda's choice of clothes, and Freda's choice of words on the Tweet, Helen's arguments are indeed irrelevant. It all depends on what Freda is trying to get out of the debate. It did absolutely nothing to help people with gender dysphoria when it comes to a discussion around the conflict of gender identity belief and women's rights. But was it ever supposed to? Rhetorical question.

Linked to my comment above, here's something I found on Google from a science publication:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26498424/

EtiennePalmiere · Today 10:03

They actually think we're jealous of them??

It's just another entry in the DARVO column, I'm afraid.

It's just another entry in the DARVO column, I'm afraid.
Partly - I think partly not. They wish they had our bodies, but they also think womanning is a performance, a performance of being titillating to men, and that we with our practical clothes and short hair and academic talk aren't doing it properly. They /have/ to believe womanning is something you do not something you are, or they couldn't be women.

Ameanstreakamilewide · Today 11:02

Darn it to Heck. Should have been,"roughed," of course!

*Thirdfiddle"

I did think it was noticeable Freda's outfit had a certain similarity to Helen's and wondered if that was deliberate on Freda's part - I can be you only "better".

If he thinks that looking like a superannuated streetwalker makes him look better than Helen Joyce on the night, he's even more delusional than I'd realised.

It all depends on what Freda is trying to get out of the debate.

i'm guessing, this is just a wild hunch, that what Freda was trying to get, is a date

Sinnerboy, Freda appears to believe that Freda came off better than Helen in the actual debate. The delusion is strong with this one.

@Datun enjoy!

twitter.com/i/spaces/1RDGllEZMBmGL

Ah, it won't let me view without a Twitter account. (i'm not on Twitter).

Oh yes, that’s new! I used to be able to see the tweet, without any subsequent tweets or replies, now I’m told to sign up.

Risky strategy from Musk, assuming he isn’t actively trying to destroy the expensive toy he bought that he doesn’t understand.

Absolutely. The likes of Freda actually think it’s flattering to be cat called by the sort of blokes who would shag a lamppost if there were breasts attached to it.
And that we’re jealous of that attention.

Whereas most of us have got used to pushing away male attention from our early teens (or even younger) and have spend our adult lives thinking ‘oh just fuck off’ when we’re leered at by randoms.

Oh that's a shame datun. You're not missing much though really. It was pretty much the same dynamic as between Joyce and Wallace. Phillimore left after the first hour as planned.

As we're on paraphilias, I think it's also worth mentioning Personality Disorders.

This is a small study, from 2014, but interesting:

'the prevalence of personality disorders was higher among the participants, and the most frequent personality disorder was narcissistic personality disorder (57.1%)'
...
'Some scholars classified GID as a part of borderline personality disorder (BPD) (10 to 13). For example, Murray has suggested that GID in men is a presentation of character structure matched with Kernberg’s criteria for borderline personality organization. Transsexualism is even considered as a subset of borderline personality disorder (10). Seikowski et al. opposed to the correlation between GID and borderline personality disorder, regarding GID as a separate disorder, which may sometimes show borderline personality disorder symptoms (14).'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

This more recent study calls for more research.

'The prevalence rate of personality disorders in GD patients has been reported to be from 15% to 80% by different studies. In line with the data from previous studies, it was revealed that borderline personality disorder is one of the most prevalent disorders among GD patients. Available comorbid personality disorders cause a wide range of side effects on the normal function of patients'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9480747/

He's trying to get a sense of satisfaction from knowingly taking the piss out of the whole situation and indulging his exhibitionism fetish live on stage

Oh well. I'm sure the one dose of Freda is quite sufficient. In the immortal words of Mr Bennett when Mary had finished her second song, “That will do extremely well, child. You have delighted us long enough. Let the other young ladies have time to exhibit."

I hope I'm not too late to add my congratulations @RealityFan

I've been in a rush.

In an interesting development.....

India is calling Freda and Peter out as useless and the fetish side of things. Freda is doubling down on the idea that the way Freda came across was exactly as Freda intended.

https://twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1718262888261910608?t=MdL43Dc9l5DC0JmD45KqrA&s=19

Screenshots to follow for anyone not on Twitter.