Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

If FW got his lady dique out and pissed over the whole of the audience, the men who say they are women would say that he must have just felt as if he was unwelcome in the ladies toilets and this was his anger coming out.

If FW had got a gun out and opened fire into the audience, killing and wounding many people, the men who say they are women would have empathised with the horrid abuse he had felt at the firing range and this was his anger coming out.

People need to realise that NOTHING must come between a man and his cock. NOTHING.

Thoughts from 19 year old and myself.

There was a noticeable difference in what clothing a woman and a transwoman considered appropriate for wearing to appear on a panel show. Of course people should be free to wear what they like, but you should be (in our opinion) making sure it's appropriate for the setting.

Only one person was shouting loudly about their sex life. If you'd have asked us before which one it would be we could have guessed based on previous experience of this kind of thing.

Peter Tatchell didn't seem to know what he was talking about.

Not all LGB people dislike LGB Alliance. DS1 is a gay man who thinks the T part of LGBT is a different thing, with different needs and issues.

Helen Joyce is an absolute queen. I love how she asked the audience not to talk over PT in the same way they didn't talk over her. So polite.

The other man on the end was just funny. Loved him and HJ just appearing to decide they may as well just drink.

It was the complete opposite of any of those kinds of panel things I've been to, where any audience question that doesn't involve affirmation isn't allowed and any hint of GC behaviour sees you being asked to be kind.

It used to be Jane Fae, who promoted violent porn, then Shon 'suck dick, get tits early' Faye, then India Willoughby, growing their own cervix and bragging about searching out women's only places to enter.

And now Freda, 'girl dick in fetish clubs' Wallace.

I mean, if you had long enough, you'd never have to generalise again, you could just literally make a list!!

I see that claim made fairly frequently by transwomen. The idea is that women are jealous of them because men secretly find them more desirable.

It's intended to disturb women, presumably because the transwomen making the claim imagine that male desire is the resource they are competing for against women.

It falls flat, I think, because transwomen just don't understand women at all, for all they claim to 'be' us.

Absolutely.

We've seen quite a few stories where the man says he wants to transition, because women get asked for sex all the time, and he wants a part of that.

Not realising that for women, being pestered for sex by randoms in a bar is a turn off, not a turn on, and the quickest route to the decision to leave.

Basically boasting about how marvellous it is to be on the receiving end of those randoms, is going move many women to relief it's not happening to them, rather than the rank envy these man fondly imagine.

I imagine it won’t just be the Muslim community who self exclude. I attend a woman’s group. If I had gone along and there were men involved I just wouldn’t have gone back again. Presumably Peter wouldn’t class this sort of self-exclusion as an issue. No complaint made therefore no problem.

Are you sorry for the profoundly disabled young woman sent pornographic images by Wallace on Twitter? Do you think Wallace's anger justifies that behaviour?

Interesting how Tatchell refused to use the word 'children' and kept changing it to 'young people' despite being asked specifically about children.

Only one person was shouting loudly about their sex life. If you'd have asked us before which one it would be we could have guessed based on previous experience of this kind of thing.

One of the things trans activists get angry about is the claim made by gender-critical feminists that the majority of them are a certain three letter acronym. So if I was a trans woman asked to take part in a debate like this, I would want to make sure to convey that this perception was wrong, and I would dress and behave as much like an ordinary woman as possible.

And yet repeatedly, they don't do this. Freda Wallace, Grace Lavery et al dress in obviously sexual ways and talk about their sex lives, undermining their central claim that this all about feeling like a woman, not a sexual fetish.

Why is that, I wonder? I can only imagine it's because they want to taunt us with the fact that they're getting away with it.

Not realising that for women, being pestered for sex by randoms in a bar is a turn off, not a turn on, and the quickest route to the decision to leave.

Do you think there's any possibility they would actually enjoy interactions with (wannabe PUAs)? Or would that lead to a full and frank exchange of opinions in record time?

I honestly think that most of the time, they don't know they're doing it. To them, this IS what a woman does.

You have to remember that the use of the concept of women in their narrative is based purely on a fiction of their own making.

The only time actual women impinge on their psyche, is when we are stopping them from doing what they want.

I think it's the goal for a lot of these men.

There was that one tw, in the Telegraph I think it might have been, who on one of their first outings dressed as a woman, bemoaned the fact that, even though they danced on the tables and did everything right, they didn't get picked up.

The accompanying photograph was a short skirted man, trying to look like a knock-kneed, pigeon toe-ed, innocent adolescent girl. It was fairly disturbing, to be honest.

They actually think we're jealous of them?? I thought they were jealous of us, shows how naive I am.

Yes, absolutely.

It's also worth bearing in mind that paraphilias are often a disorder. It should come as no surprise that a person acts in an illogical or disorder way if this is driving their behaviour.

No jealousy.

I actually don’t want it to be any emotion which it would be if we could have single sex spaces.

I’m happy to be left alone by men who wish to share.

I used to go on marches and demos for equal rights (gay marriage etc) and an end to discrimination. I went with a lot of friends, and would be devastated to know any of them had been beaten up so badly that they now had cognitive impairment. I would not want them to stop campaigning for what they believe in.

Having thought about it, i think that Tatchell is so deep into this (his belief that T need as much "help" as gays and lesbians did when he was active on that scene) that he can't withdraw. I'm not sure if he genuinely believes that T are as disadvantaged as the L & G used to be (still are in so many ways). He has made abhorrent statements about children (at least) in the past, and it is noticeable how he avoids use of the word now.

The more people watch this video the better, the contrast in behaviour between the woman and the trans woman is stark. I think that Helen and Freda's skirts may have been a similar length? (also Freda's beer drinkers elbow really made me laugh)

I agree with you on those points, I was referencing posters above who said some TW think actual women are jealous of them.

He has made abhorrent statements about children (at least) in the past, and it is noticeable how he avoids use of the word now.

His foundation is still active in the education of children no matter how much he attempts to age-wash the term by referring to young people (commonly understood as up to age 25).

He keeps appearing as a speaker to keep the funders aware of the foundation and to remain internationally relevant.

https://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/

Oh I know. I agree with you

wishful thinking/projection

I know 'rouged' was a typo, but it actually works really well! 😂

It's also worth bearing in mind that paraphilias are often a disorder. It should come as no surprise that a person acts in an illogical or disorder way if this is driving their behaviour.

Yes, indeed.

And although I knew that, I don't think it had quite sunk in that it accounts for the massive disconnect between the very few, but highly politically motivated men, trying to get laws changed, and the actual men who they know will be taking advantage of those laws.

Women have noted, over and over, all the contradictions inherent in this ideology. And a 'paraphilia talking', would absolutely explain that away.

As would the difference between the way it's talked about politically, and the stealth, under the radar, nature of that, as opposed to watching it in action, on the telly with Freda's flashing and knocking back the wine.

I think that Helen and Freda's skirts may have been a similar length?
If they started a similar length Freda's rode up, by the end you couldn't tell Freda even had a skirt on. Even Helen's made me feel uncomfortable given the camera angle, but that's probably because I mostly wear trousers (and therefore according to Tatchell am a man) and she was entirely decorous.
I did think it was noticeable Freda's outfit had a certain similarity to Helen's and wondered if that was deliberate on Freda's part - I can be you only "better". Where better in TRA terms means sexier because TRAs are judging women from a male gaze sort of perspective.

Agree wholeheartedly. They don’t listen to us (or don’t believe us) when we say we don’t like being leered at, pestered, pressured or harassed by men for sex. They would find that sort of attention validating so they assume women love it because in their minds, women all want to be desired by all men.

It ties in with wider views of women held by men; and with rape culture. ‘You love it really’ ‘I know you want it’ etc. Just a blanket refusal to accept that women aren’t ’an expectant mouth/gaping arsehole’ or whatever it is that disgusting man once said. Forgotten his name.

If only they would listen, and believe us.

The clothes argument makes no sense to anyone with more than 4 brain cells, people wear different clothes all over the world so choosing certain clothes that fit the gender in your area surely proves gender is not inherent??
The argument can be made in terms of who you copy. So men naturally know they are men and therefore naturally copy what the other men do, whatever that is in their particular culture.

However, in the culture I live in women's and men's clothes are increasingly interchangeable really. There's a load of overlap. Looking at your wedding day, a super-formal occasion, is probably the most split still, and you will still find some women wearing suits, particularly lesbian women.
He must have been talking to an audience including plenty of short haired women dressed similarly to him. Hence the gasps of horror.

"People" shouldn't be allowed in the women's toilets if they're dressed as men"? That's most women on an everyday basis if both the women and the men are wearing jeans and T-shirts/shirts/jumpers.