Page 12 | Trans Ideology - a real life debate

Forester1 · 2023-10-26T18:11:26+00:00

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate For me positions can be summarised as: Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind. [[https://youtu.be/Va3i-_Fbfpo?feature=shared Link to YouTube video]]

Brefugee · 27/10/2023 17:14

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/10/2023 17:09

It shows that transwomen are significantly statistically more likely to commit offences for sex crimes than men (if the transwomen are in the men category too it won't matter either way for the stats skew because of the difference in volumes between men and transwomen).

I don't think you can properly make that inference from the prison data in those charts. I do find this kind of reasoning hard myself, but the problem is that prisoners are not representative of the population at large, and prisons are not like the outside world either.

Imprisoned sex offenders only make up a small subset of all sex offenders, and there are reasons why sex offenders in prison are more likely to claim a trans identity (often dropped again on leaving prison) which they would not claim outside of prison, and which men who were imprisoned for other offences would be less likely to try to claim. Most of these reasons are not to do with an inner sense of gender identity. I don't think the statistics even include transwomen with GRCs (who only make up a tiny number of these prisoners anyway)

For example, the opportunities for sex offending in prison go up very sharply if a man can get into a women's prison by claiming a trans identity. So that's a potentially strong motive for sex offenders who are in prison to do so. In the outside world sex offenders have plenty of other opportunities without claiming a trans identity.

So I don't think you can reason from those prison charts either that sex offenders in general are more likely to be transwomen than other offenders, nor that transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders than other men

Oh, and based on the raw numbers in the charts, if all these men are allowed into women's prisons they nearly double the population of sex offenders in women's prisons (103 male sex offenders who identify as women to 93 women sex offenders) So not a teeny tiny minority at all, not to the guards and the women prisoners who would have to put up with them.

I'm willing to be corrected by people who know more and can do this stuff properly!

the point is:

out of all men in prison only a small percentage are in prison for sex offenses
out of all women in prison only a small percentage are in prison for sex offenses
out of all trans women in prison - proportionately a very large number of them are in for sex offences (I've seen 50% quoted but i CBA to look up stats)
as Helen Joyce said in the video: because such a small number of women are in prison for sex offenses, when trans women's sex offences are counted among them they double (did she say double?). In any case, the fact is that the original numbers (adult human female sex offenders in prison) is so tiny that it is massively skewed even by the relatively (thankfully) small-ish number of trans women's sex offences

DialSquare · 27/10/2023 17:16

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 17:11

The TRAs are out in force at the LGB allowance conference.

Down with this sort of thing.

MavisMcMinty · 27/10/2023 17:16

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 17:13

Forgot the link

https://twitter.com/genderisharmful/status/1717916026703094044?s=19

There's footage of Freda telling someone to fuck off.

Necking the booze again.

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 17:17

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 16:38

When Freda said this, my first thought was "I wonder if there is someone important that Freda has some info on and this was a shot across the bough". Obviously I have nothing to base that on and I countered it with my next thought that "it could just be waffle with no substance".

But as a supporter of Sex Matters, you could well find yourself in a queue @RealityFan if you change your mind. Obviously I'm not making any homophobic or transphobic judgements/statements here about you or me. Simply pointing out that, taking Freda's comments at face value Freda sounds like quite the catch for some fun. The monologue about the sex stuff was quite the advert for any (un?)discerning GC men who want a new experience 😬😁

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Haha, well I've really laid myself open for that, lol. I'll pass, actually.

Can I just be a male Sex Matters supporter that doesn't want to shag Freda? Please...

Of course the conclusion is it's all Freda Bollocks, this disdainful "attempt" at debate.

Just TRAs making up the numbers. The real work is being done by the lobbyists.

I really commend Matthew and Helen for putting up with this BS, but that's all this is, BS.

Static noise to fill the air.

Right now if gays or PoC or disabled people were fighting for rights, there would be cogent arguments and impassioned pleas, not a soused individual who just throws outrageous statements about.

That's why the movement is not serious in its basic nature, it has no underlying consistency. It's purely a battering ram to inveigle post modern lack of rules and rigour that suits the new ruling professional managerial classes.

And so confident are they, that losers like Wallace can be put forward against one of leading lights of the GC world.

Can Tatchell really have been happy with what he heard from Wallace? I suspect not 100%, but for him to peel away from the TQ+ now risks him losing all influence.

JFDIYOLO · 27/10/2023 17:18

I remember glam rock and new romantic boys in make up and flowing hair and Spandex and frills, and punk and skinhead girls with shaven heads and rips and DMs ... It was ten years of fabulous spectacle and fun and wearing whatever you fancied with none of the gender woo nonsense.

MavisMcMinty · 27/10/2023 17:19

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 17:13

Forgot the link

https://twitter.com/genderisharmful/status/1717916026703094044?s=19

There's footage of Freda telling someone to fuck off.

I see Freda’s necking the booze again. Wonder if that’s how Freda managed to lose Freda’s job? It’s a slam-dunk way of getting rid of an employee.

EDIT: Lost internet for a minute, hence duplicate posts, sorry!

Brefugee · 27/10/2023 17:21

JFDIYOLO · 27/10/2023 17:18

I remember glam rock and new romantic boys in make up and flowing hair and Spandex and frills, and punk and skinhead girls with shaven heads and rips and DMs ... It was ten years of fabulous spectacle and fun and wearing whatever you fancied with none of the gender woo nonsense.

there was a small sliver of time when i really thought we'd cracked the gender stereotypes. Then came the dawn of the Ladette and it's all been downhill since then.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/10/2023 17:29

out of all men in prison only a small percentage are in prison for sex offenses
out of all women in prison only a small percentage are in prison for sex offenses

OK, though that misses the point that Helen Joyce made that it's a much smaller proportion of women than men.

out of all trans women in prison - proportionately a very large number of them are in for sex offences (I've seen 50% quoted but i CBA to look up stats)

Yes I do know, but that's not on those charts.

as Helen Joyce said in the video: because such a small number of women are in prison for sex offenses, when trans women's sex offences are counted among them they double (did she say double?).

Yes the numbers in the charts do show the doubling effect, like I said.

But what the charts don't show is that "transwomen are significantly statistically more likely to commit offences for sex crimes than men" We really don't know that and that's not what the charts say.. Helen Joyce is very careful what she says and how she says it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 17:30

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 15:11

https://twitter.com/JohnCarameI/status/1717680437374366206?s=19

Erm...someone had put together all the clips of wine being consumed by one panel member

I like the reply to that that says Fred playing his own drinking game? Rules are: drink whenever anyone says anything, literally any words.

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 17:31

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I definitely see your points. Perhaps that's why Helen doesn't use these stats and instead just rolls it up to figures male pattern violence. I'm no stats whizz and Helen clearly is!
I was seeing the patterns that @Brefugee lays out. I was also seeing it as indicative in general, given convictions represent "confirmed truths", which is easier to defend as valid than anecdotal evidence. But I appreciate that there is a lot more going on within sex offences than just confirmed convictions.

@RealityFan thank you for taking that in good grace 🙏😁 You did indeed leave the goal wide open 😁

RethinkingLife · 27/10/2023 17:32

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 17:13

Forgot the link

https://twitter.com/genderisharmful/status/1717916026703094044?s=19

There's footage of Freda telling someone to fuck off.

FW's latest DARVO is to reprimand people for upskirt shots.

I haven't watched the video but from the thumbnail it looked more like intentional indecent exposure.

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 17:32

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 17:31

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I definitely see your points. Perhaps that's why Helen doesn't use these stats and instead just rolls it up to figures male pattern violence. I'm no stats whizz and Helen clearly is!
I was seeing the patterns that @Brefugee lays out. I was also seeing it as indicative in general, given convictions represent "confirmed truths", which is easier to defend as valid than anecdotal evidence. But I appreciate that there is a lot more going on within sex offences than just confirmed convictions.

@RealityFan thank you for taking that in good grace 🙏😁 You did indeed leave the goal wide open 😁

I got married yesterday, nothing can hurt me now, lol.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/10/2023 17:33

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 17:31

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I definitely see your points. Perhaps that's why Helen doesn't use these stats and instead just rolls it up to figures male pattern violence. I'm no stats whizz and Helen clearly is!
I was seeing the patterns that @Brefugee lays out. I was also seeing it as indicative in general, given convictions represent "confirmed truths", which is easier to defend as valid than anecdotal evidence. But I appreciate that there is a lot more going on within sex offences than just confirmed convictions.

@RealityFan thank you for taking that in good grace 🙏😁 You did indeed leave the goal wide open 😁

@BonfireLady Yes, interpreting statistics can be a minefield! It's so easy to go a step too far. One of the reasons Helen Joyce carries so much clout is that she really sticks to what the evidence says.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 17:35

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 15:19

To be fair, I saw Freda as quite an attractive woman and I probably would not have noticed she was transgender. But her attire and demeanor wasn't appropriate for the event.

You are male. I believe it's well documented that the female of the species is better than the male at correctly sexing fellow humans. I don't believe many women would have been taken in by FW for more than a nanosecond. It's not just clothes, hair, makeup and shoes, and not even just height, breadth of shoulders, narrowness of hips, size of hands and feet, presence or absence of Adam's Apple and so on. The absolutely impossible thing to disguise is male socialisation.

The disconnect between the picture used on the publicity for the event and the reality of FW's appearance in the flesh is quite startling.

thirdfiddle · 27/10/2023 17:39

But what the charts don'tshow is that "transwomen are significantly statistically more likely to commit offences for sex crimes than men" We really don't know that and that's not what the charts say..

I don't really see any way around it being one of:

TW are significantly more likely to commit sexual offences or
Non T men who wish to offend will pretend to be TW consistently and over a long period if they think it's in their interests.

2 washes out self ID just as much as 1). If they'll go to all the trouble of formal channels and risk of ID-ing as female in a male jail up to transfer etc etc, how much more likely are they to just wander into a female changing room when they discover trans policies mean they can't be challenged?

They might make a try for
3) TW are more likely to be arrested due to transphobia,
but I don't think it'd stand the least scrutiny, not least half these people don't even identify as trans until in custody. And you'd have to have a /lot/ of unconvicted women sex offenders to balance it back up to female levels, that doesn't seem remotely in line with any data we have.

IDontHateRainbows · 27/10/2023 17:39

RethinkingLife · 27/10/2023 17:32

FW's latest DARVO is to reprimand people for upskirt shots.

I haven't watched the video but from the thumbnail it looked more like intentional indecent exposure.

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Yes, he does like to get the tongues a-wagging with how he dresses, explicit pics etc and then turn it round to THEY are perving at ME.
Projection at its finest.

RethinkingLife · 27/10/2023 17:41

Accept no substitutes, Maya Angelou leads the way.

It’s the fire in my eyes,
And the flash of my teeth,
The swing in my waist,
And the joy in my feet.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.

Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.

a

Maya Angelou Recites Phenomenal Woman

RIP to one of the world's greatest poets, Maya Angelou, 1928 - 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=ClassicBlackCinema&v=egrQH2UTaWE

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/10/2023 17:47

thirdfiddle · 27/10/2023 17:39

But what the charts don'tshow is that "transwomen are significantly statistically more likely to commit offences for sex crimes than men" We really don't know that and that's not what the charts say..

I don't really see any way around it being one of:

TW are significantly more likely to commit sexual offences or
Non T men who wish to offend will pretend to be TW consistently and over a long period if they think it's in their interests.

2 washes out self ID just as much as 1). If they'll go to all the trouble of formal channels and risk of ID-ing as female in a male jail up to transfer etc etc, how much more likely are they to just wander into a female changing room when they discover trans policies mean they can't be challenged?

They might make a try for
3) TW are more likely to be arrested due to transphobia,
but I don't think it'd stand the least scrutiny, not least half these people don't even identify as trans until in custody. And you'd have to have a /lot/ of unconvicted women sex offenders to balance it back up to female levels, that doesn't seem remotely in line with any data we have.

Edited

I'll readily go with "2" and agree "self-id" is a wholly predictable disaster.

And I'm with Helen Joyce that the most important difference is between men and women, not between men and transwomen. Whether it's about sex offending or any other behaviour.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 27/10/2023 17:52

If Freda genuinely believes that 'all GC arguments are garbage' then why they didn't they demonstrate the rubbish-ness of a single one? (Nope sorry, pipe down doesn't count as successfully rebutting an argument). I heard a lot of nonsense being spouted but if one point could be totally dismissed as garbage without any need to explain why it has to be Freda's 'I'm a lesbian because I screw men'. I didn't need Helen to counter that argument because it was a steaming pile of manure.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2023 17:57

This is off at a bit of a tangent, but back in the 1920s when the flappers very daringly had their long hair cut off, did anyone say they now looked like men? Especially those who also began to wear trousers or culottes and to do bold things like drive cars or fly planes or practise as doctors or even engineers. I think I remember reading that one reason women were discouraged or forbidden from playing sport was because doctors said their wombs would fall out. Women broke out from many of these idiotic sexual stereotypes a century ago, and yet here we are, men utterly having failed to follow suit, for the most part.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 27/10/2023 18:00

Women broke out from many of these idiotic sexual stereotypes a century ago, and yet here we are, men utterly having failed to follow suit, for the most part.
They haven't just failed to follow suit, they have tried to put us back into the pink fluffy box our foremothers fought so hard to climb out of.

ILikeDungs · 27/10/2023 18:07

YetAnotherSpartacus · 27/10/2023 12:31

Still on page one. What is actually visible between Freda's legs?

Anyone else reminded of Bob Mortimer's "Ray Mears drops a bollock" sketch?

It is gold. Starts at 10:30 minutes in.

Shooting Stars Season 5 Episode 8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNm6ztSPR6k

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 18:07

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I will fully hold my hands up to my stats interpretation "overreach". Sadly I can't imagine the TRAs that do the same with the much touted regret and suicide stats would ever do that. I'm minded (rather ironically) of Helen Joyce's advice to never apologise 😁 But I appreciate that that was in reference to an entirely different context re the Roisin Murphy follow-up statement on puberty blockers (which wasn't really an apology at all.. but that's off-topic). The comments above on the stats are interesting.

@RealityFan congrats!

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 18:08

BonfireLady · 27/10/2023 18:07

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I will fully hold my hands up to my stats interpretation "overreach". Sadly I can't imagine the TRAs that do the same with the much touted regret and suicide stats would ever do that. I'm minded (rather ironically) of Helen Joyce's advice to never apologise 😁 But I appreciate that that was in reference to an entirely different context re the Roisin Murphy follow-up statement on puberty blockers (which wasn't really an apology at all.. but that's off-topic). The comments above on the stats are interesting.

@RealityFan congrats!

Appreciate that, I stayed off MN for a whole day!

Boiledbeetle · 27/10/2023 18:10

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 17:32

I got married yesterday, nothing can hurt me now, lol.

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Remembers we were promised wedding cake