Trans Ideology - a real life debate

[Forester1]

So something that is far too rare - a proper debate

For me positions can be summarised as:

Mark Glenening - free speech paramount - and shouldnt have compelled speech
Helen Joyce - Single sex spaces are needed - males need to keep out - however they identify
Freda Wallace - Me, me, me, my sex life, me
Peter Tatchell - Akin to fight for gay rights, black rights. I don’t see any issues. Be kind.

the massive lie that girls in schools accept boys in their toilets

specsavers.co.uk/

I know, the idea being proposed by adults, that girls are in a position to object in schools if they don't like it, is extraordinary to me.

And the idea that men have been sauntering into women's toilets (or breaching women's boundaries) without women objecting for decades so it's all fine (rather than utterly appalling) is shocking. Where exactly do these men get off with this nonsense?

I thoroughly enjoyed that, absolutely hilarious 😂

Freda has memorised a load of non-"answers" and using words like "vexations" "this is not how society is structured"

I don't understand how Freda thinks that women fighting for women's spaces is anti-women? I can only square that circle by assuming that Freda thinks that the only real women are trans women and that the rest of us don't matter at all.

No, it really isn't.

Some of what Tatchell says verges on TERF territory

Yes and no. But clothing does make us make assumptions about someone and what they might be like.

Depending on someone's viewpoint, it's either "gender expression" (Peter Tatchell's waffle was trying to position this viewpoint from what I could tell) or "how I express my personality and the way I want to show it to the world".

If someone is dressed in a gimp suit at the Globe Theatre (yes, this did happen. There is a thread about it) then lots of people will make assumptions about the type of person they are. If someone turns up to a public debate panel in fishnets, boots and a short skirt people will do the same. Likewise if someone turns up to a nightclub wearing a high neck button down blouse and an ankle length skirt (the assumptions may differ on how young the person is -some people may pull this off as cool - and what sex they are).

But for women in particular, it's incredibly easy for us to spot someone who isn't a woman, no matter how they are dressed. It's been mentioned lots that this is all part of our own personal risk assessment in situations we find ourselves e.g. being alone outside in the dark. Lots of men will spot that Freda isn't a woman but I do remember a man commenting on another thread (I think the commenter is on this one too but may be wrong) that his wife spotted a transwoman when he did not. My own husband completely missed the transwoman in Sex Education too. I've no idea how considering it was part of the storyline, but there we go 🤦‍♀️ In one of the later episodes when everyone was dancing, Abi (the transwoman) was performatively rubbing Abi's breasts whilst dancing.. and I passed comment that this was something I might expect to see at Malaga Airport. My husband was shocked to discover that Abi was trans at this point.

It was a very interesting point above about autism and transwomen regarding this point about recognising someone's sex.

If someone is dressed in a gimp suit at the Globe Theatre (yes, this did happen. There is a thread about it)

handily that photo is In today's daily mail

You cannot possibly think that a man changes magically into a woman just because he puts different clothes on.

This is such disingenuous batshittery.

When Freda said this, my first thought was "I wonder if there is someone important that Freda has some info on and this was a shot across the bough". Obviously I have nothing to base that on and I countered it with my next thought that "it could just be waffle with no substance".

But as a supporter of Sex Matters, you could well find yourself in a queue @RealityFan if you change your mind. Obviously I'm not making any homophobic or transphobic judgements/statements here about you or me. Simply pointing out that, taking Freda's comments at face value Freda sounds like quite the catch for some fun. The monologue about the sex stuff was quite the advert for any (un?)discerning GC men who want a new experience 😬😁

Clothing is just clothing.

Freda looks just as much like a man in fishnets as he does in trousers.

I'm not interested in judging his appearance, but it is worth noting that women all, without exception, read him as male. His behaviour, posture, and all the tiny subtle clues that give it away.

Perception is unbelievably powerful.

To be fair, this was Peter's point.

Perhaps it's more common among men to rely on stereotypical clothing for cues to ascertain sex? And of course we know that various fetishes involve clothing.

I wish they'd had time to discuss the truth about girls' feelings about boys in their loos, or the loss of their own female only spaces, tho

https://meaww.com/girls-skipping-school-gender-neutral-toilet-washrooms-same-sex-unisex-uti-infections-feminist

I’m fast coming to the conclusion that the numbers of ‘genuine’ TW with dysphoria is vanishing small. I’ve met a lot of TW and all have been the sort that like Malaga airport

https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/fred-freda-fred-and-peter-t-gif-16604787201638132637

Freda said several times during that hour that Freda really doesn't care if someone calls Freda a "man" or uses male pronouns.

That isn't gender dysphoria, is it?
I literally don't care what people wear. As a 2nd waver and sometime "new romantic morphed into a goth" i have no issues about what people wear. As a new-romantic-etc the main thing was immaculately applied make-up, fantastic hair, and really dressing well in clean, well looked after clothes. Boys, girls, men, women, whoever. The main thing was making an effort. The best looking boys/men with the best outfits and makeup tended to have the most sex. (and very often it was "anything with a pulse"). It wasn't about your gender. It wasn't about your sex. It was all about the look.

All that to say: I DGAF what people wear. I would prefer they don't look awful and lumpy and have bits and things hanging out or on display where they shouldn't be (in public). In fact i would prefer more hetero men in make up and nail varnish and dresses. (one reason i want men's dresses to be A Thing is because the likliehood of getting pockets increases exponentially)

I would think that at this stage anyone with genuine gender dysphoria is looking on aghast and dismayed.

And still trans men's voices are conspicuous by their absence.

I remember being in a pub in brighton and the most beautiful woman walked in. She was gorgeous, well dressed, make up, long hair.

The girls in our group all said 'thats a man' and then watched as nearly every young man in the pub fell over themselves trying to get her attention and bought her drinks.

The lady boys of bangkok were in town touring

Here’s David Bowie rocking a dress in the early 70s - it was made especially for him, so it is a man’s dress. Men and women can wear whatever they like, they’ve been doing it for decades. When I was a goth, most of the men on the scene wore make-up. They were happy to be men and I thought they looked cool. It’s only in the last few years that everything has started going backwards.

It shows that transwomen are significantly statistically more likely to commit offences for sex crimes than men (if the transwomen are in the men category too it won't matter either way for the stats skew because of the difference in volumes between men and transwomen).

I don't think you can properly make that inference from the prison data in those charts. I do find this kind of reasoning hard myself, but the problem is that prisoners are not representative of the population at large, and prisons are not like the outside world either.

Imprisoned sex offenders only make up a small subset of all sex offenders, and there are reasons why sex offenders in prison are more likely to claim a trans identity (often dropped again on leaving prison) which they would not claim outside of prison, and which men who were imprisoned for other offences would be less likely to try to claim. Most of these reasons are not to do with an inner sense of gender identity. I don't think the statistics even include transwomen with GRCs (who only make up a tiny number of these prisoners anyway)

For example, the opportunities for sex offending in prison go up very sharply if a man can get into a women's prison by claiming a trans identity. So that's a potentially strong motive for sex offenders who are in prison to do so. In the outside world sex offenders have plenty of other opportunities without claiming a trans identity.

So I don't think you can reason from those prison charts either that sex offenders in general are more likely to be transwomen than other offenders, nor that transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders than other men

Oh, and based on the raw numbers in the charts, if all these men are allowed into women's prisons they nearly double the population of sex offenders in women's prisons (103 male sex offenders who identify as women to 93 women sex offenders) So not a teeny tiny minority at all, not to the guards and the women prisoners who would have to put up with them.

I'm willing to be corrected by people who know more and can do this stuff properly!

anyone else just think back to that little kid on Kindergarten Cop whose dad was a gynacologyst saying 'boys have a penis, girls have a vagina'

life was so much more simple back then.

The TRAs are out in force at the LGB allowance conference.

Forgot the link

https://twitter.com/genderisharmful/status/1717916026703094044?s=19

There's footage of Freda telling someone to fuck off.

‘A weak dangle’ 😝