Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Isn't the current demand to opt into women's spaces (rather thanoutof men's)?

But, practically, whats the difference?

My local council swimming pool is cash strapped, theres little chance of building new 'third sex' facilities. Same with hospitals and prisons.

Men saying they dont want to use the male spaces is the same as using the female ones, because the no other facilities exist.

I think the approach is situational. I accept not every swimming pool can provide a suitable third space for changing. But nobody is forcing my to go swimming. The issue is with unavoidable single sex environments, such as hospitals. I think the case for providing some sort of privacy for trans and nonbinary people in those situations is much stronger.

I think the case for providing some sort of privacy for trans and nonbinary people in those situations is much stronger.

Privacy from what?

A ward for trans and enbies will be mixed sex.

A third space won't work for those who want to avoid men or want to be men or want to be a mythical third sex, will it? They'll all want their own spaces. Realistically we are looking at six spaces: Male, female, transwoman, transman, female nonbinary, male nonbinary.

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Do you have any examples of what those situations are?

That's not me dodging the question BTW, I just can't think what these might be.

I suppose military conscription laws is one of the difficult ones. Prison conditions potentially another (although that varies between jurisdictions). Historically, the military one might be fudged on "mental health" grounds, though I'm not sure that would be an option these days.

The proposal is additional third spaces.
Obviously it's all theoretical on here but it could be trialled somewhere (Brighton was my suggestion) to tease out what did and didn't work.

Side rooms in hospitals and separate facilities in prisons do exist already. If some leisure facilities couldn't accommodate third spaces, there would be others which could. Anyone who wants to opt out of the sex-segrated space still has a choice to stay in it should they wish to do so e.g.if their favourite swimming pool doesn't have third spaces, they could still use the facilities commensurate with their sex (not gender identity) if it was particularly important that they went to that one. It's a personal choice based on weighing up the pros and cons.

Exactly so. I haven't been swimming since I transitioned for precisely that reason. If I really wanted to I'd probably stay at a hotel where I could get changed in my room. There has to be some realism about what can be achieved.

I really can't see the argument. I think you assume that men share an identity but they don't. They just share a body. A TW has the same body as other males. There's no rationale for separation once you accept that fact.

What use will a separate facilities be if both men and women can use them? Theyll be mixed sex.

Why would it be unacceptable to share facilities with men in male only spaces, but acceptable in 'trans' spaces?

@literalviolence @ZuttZeVootEeeVo

Well, to answer your queries about using men's facilities from a personal perspective, I do have breasts.

The point is that the men's and women's would be single sex.

@MargotBamborough

Precisely - the choice to use the third gender facilities would imply acceptance of sharing with either sex (although in an ideal world individual privacy would be better for everyone).

Mind you, the Sarah Jane Barker thread is making me a bit nervous about the idea of a dedicated prison wing for transwomen 😱

Yes, military conscription would be a tough one in countries where this is in place. Can we have a "too difficult for now" bucket? 😁

Mental health grounds sound reasonable but that's another shift in conversation because that's now putting gender dysphoria in to a mental health category. I've listened to Blaire White and Buck Angel talk in support of that - I'm on the same page as Blaire and Buck on that one.

For prisons I think it's one to consider on a dignity/belief basis. I think I remember from up-thread somewhere that there is a different clothing allowance/rule for men and women? Obviously I'm not a policy maker but I think it would be reasonable for a transwoman to request an accommodation in line with their gender identity on that point.

In short, each one on its own merits. With a default back to sex-segregation until an answer can be found.

The point is that the men's and women's would be single sex.

But the argument for separate spaces and the cost associated, doesnt hold up.

We will be taking space away from others at great cost, to provide mixed sex facilities for people who claim that they cant possible be with people of their sex.

If a man cant be in a changing room with men, why can he be in the changing room with men with the exact same body, but claiming gender identity?

Well yes, you've identified a flaw in the plan there.

Keeping women's prisons single sex would protect women from violent male prisoners who identify as trans to gain access to potential victims.

Having separate accommodation for transgender prisoners would not protect trans women from violent male prisoners who identify as trans to gain access to potential victims.

But that's the same reason why allowing trans women to use women's spaces - any women's spaces - doesn't actually guarantee trans women's safety. It just compromises women's. Because if a trans woman can say the words "I identify as a woman" and gain access to those spaces, so can anyone.

@BonfireLady

I like the thinking - we can't fix everything in one go, but the principle is what matters. I'm guessing the conscription thing is a bit theoretical these days anyhow in the UK. It is a live issue in Ukraine of course, although I'm not sure how I'd feel about things if I lived there.

Wait til you hear about Paris Green.

Personally, my assumption would be that where it was about personal dignity (changing facilities, toilets), individual third spaces are appropriate. There might be some other cases for shared third spaces such as gender-neutral dorms in youth hotels.

Not seen that thread. I did pop across to the Caroline Farrow thread... A very different vibe from this one! It was an odd experience going between the two 😬

@MargotBamborough
It probably comes down to allowing transwomen to request isolation for their own safety. Pretty grim, and not something likely to be an attractive option unless someone is sincere about their trans status.

It would be up to the prison service to determine risk, wouldnt it? Otherwise everyone would just declare themselves vulnerable.

The problem is cost. The cost of providing meaningful third 'gender' spaces across the whole life space would be disproportionate to the number of people who may avail themselves of those spaces. We would need to reconfigure about 20% of the sexed estate to meet the needs of 0.5% of the population and even if we did that, most of the potential beneficiaries would reject it.

Would it not be easier to live your gendered life in the space that sex isn't important? Wear what you want. Call yourself what you want but accept that when gender meets sex, sex wins.

@AlphaTransWoman your language is very similar to another MRA who adopts forced teaming on this site. There is no “we”.

Also, yeah swimming is an optional extra alongside “living”. Why should my disabled elderly mother have to dip out because it’s a nice to have even though it’s her only physical activity?

Please explain why this is different when it’s life enhancing for her? Or should she just shut up because you don’t like wearing double fucking denim.

Why does that make it hard for you to share with other males?