Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

I see where you're coming from but I am confused by the 'gender neutral' terminology. Aren't most spaces gender neutral? e.g. female loos - they're for biological women, no matter which of the (I'm told 100) genders they are. When we use 'gender neutral' terminology we do reinforce the artificial conflation of sex and gender.

I mean usable by members of either biological sex. Such spaces would typically be designed to ensure individual privacy and safety (eg toilets would be separate lockable rooms with washbasins.)

That's actually pretty close to my position as a TRA.

I would add that, as a matter of respect, people should respect each other's gender identities (eg use of preferred pronouns etc) regardless of their own beliefs about the immutability of sex.

Otherwise there's not a lot between your position and mine.

Not necessarily a bad thing though should not be called 'gender neutral' IMHO.

Have you tried being in the middle publicly? I have and it's the closest to a mob I've ever witnessed. My friends, my friends! Close friends. Life long friends. Absolutely tore me apart. No holds barred. Almost like they were waiting for a dissent upon which to leap (I questioned an intact trans woman changing and showering in the ladies alongside children and women)

I've since kept schtum within the group but they still occasionally mention it "I think x (trans woman) is admirable- I hope YOU do too cats (side eye)" or " oh cats used to think like that- didn't you cats! She was as bad as piers Morgan and the like!"

There is much here I agree with too but I fundamentally disagree about the pronouns issue. I think it is an act of cultural appropriation when a male demands to be called 'she'. I think we should develop properly neutral pronouns (not they which is linguistically silly) and I will happily use that for people who for whatever reason do not want their biological sex to be drawn attention to. However, the history and experience of womanhood is not something which a male should ever claim.

I’m not sure how this is markedly different from the position of most of the women here. Again, speaking with complete honesty, I admit I’m at the stage now where I’m less bothered about third spaces so long as men stay out of women’s spaces and sports - I was supportive of the idea a few years ago, but after about the twentieth time of being called “transphobic” for suggesting third spaces, I woke up to the fact that actually, it’s not my problem to solve how men who don’t want to share with other men shake down…I’ll just concentrate on helping to keep women’s spaces single sex.

@catscalledbeanz

Almost like they were waiting for a dissent upon which to leap

I've seen a lot of this. People are being whipped up into a frenzy, just desperate to encounter "the enemy" so they can prove something to themselves and their friends. (It's not just the TRAs either, I've seen it in some GC posts although nothing like as often).

I would add that, as a matter of respect, people should respect each other's gender identities (eg use of preferred pronouns etc) regardless of their own beliefs about the immutability of sex.

No. This is the equivalent of carrying around a cross and requiring atheists to genuflect before it.

How about I respect your right to refer to yourself as “she/her”, and you respect my right to describe reality as I see it?

I don't think what you feel is at all unusual.

The vast majority of people who are GC (on MN or otherwise) bear no ill will at all towards people who just want to get on with their lives wearing what they want, believing what they want. It's just that the trans activist movement are extremely vocal/aggressive/persistent about getting access to single sex spaces and that is what makes me furious.

I do kind of feel that if you aren't standing up for women on this, you're against them. I don't think there is a middle ground.

@catscalledbeanz I don't think its that unusual to have one or more views that aren't shared, and not bother with the aggro. It doesn't have to be a big deal, in my opinion, so long as everyone knows how each other feels, and don't deliberately seek to antagonise each other. It's not that I feel silenced, its more like "why bother speaking to people who aren't listening, or interested in a constructive conversation"

My outlet for strongly head views is protests, actions and outreach outside my friendship circles where I get engage with other people and hear a broader range of experiences and views. Not always easy, but at least I'm hearing different views, from different people and getting a better taste of what people from different walks of life think. Also giving them some experience of people like me, directly, rather than filtered through media stereotypes

No. People should not have cognitive dissonance forced upon them . If I see a man, my brain would register the person as a man. Trying to perform the mental gymnastics to use the wrong/right pronoun would not assist my mental health.

Here is yet another example of finding a middle ground which is fair, but then adding one condition for one group despite the effects on others.

@literalviolence

However, the history and experience of womanhood is not something which a male should ever claim.

👏👏👏👏👏

I believe trans women feel what they feel. I believe they are genuine insomuch as they think this is womanhood.

But it's not womanhood, it's a male's understanding of womanhood from the outside.

So when they insist it is womanhood, no matter how much they genuinely believe it, when they take our name and history for themselves, what they actually do is overwrite the knowledge, history and experiences of female people with the knowledge, history and experiences of male people.

So the idea of "middle ground" in this is a misunderstanding. Woman and trans woman are not two points on a sliding scale. Take away the word "woman" and they have nothing meaningful in common that they don't have with plenty of other groups of men.

The way forward is not to look for a way to square the circle of accommodating the desire of female people to escape the harmful social constructs of womanhood and the desire of trans women to embody them - that is simply a bad outcome for both. The way forward is to separate them entirely and understand and support trans women without any reference to female people and without appropriation of female rights, spaces, voice and history.

Yes I think the same. But PPs are right that’s not the middle. Go post the same somewhere safe (ie. probably not Reddit as mod run) and see if you can come to compromise.

Very well said FlirtsWithRhinos. Thank you.

I'm much the same mind set as you regarding third spaces. I've seen a lot of new posters come onto this board and say with some bewilderment 'what about third spaces? Surely that would solve everything?' and I think well yeah, but that suggestion gets shouted down as 'transphobic' and 'othering' and no other solution is given apart from total capitulation, to the point that Stonewall and other organisations have actually campaigned to remove the single sex exemptions in the EQA 2010.

Out of interest, OP, how long have you spent on this forum (Feminism, Sex & Gender)? If more than a week or so you'll know that this 'oh you're all so one-sided, why can't we have some sort of middle ground?' question is posed extremely regularly.

We all have to then patiently explain that we ARE the middle ground - perhaps we use this space to express frustration that we might not elsewhere - but we are generally quite moderate, accept that some people wish to be seen as the opposite sex even if that is for reasons absolutely based on egregious sex stereotypes, wish them well, but would like to maintain the fact that there are two sexes, and sometimes we need to recognise this. Medical situations, sports, single-sex facilities, data collection, etc.

Either you think the word 'woman' should mean something other than 'female' - and can set out what you think it should mean, legally - or you think we still need to distinguish between male and female in some situations. OP which position do you take on this?

All I see on here is GC rants.

Then you need to read more carefully.

But it's not a case of not bother with the aggro. We have two brexit voters , a green, a brace of leftists and one Tory in our group. Atheists in the main but also a catholic, and a cultural Jew. One of our friends practices holistic medicine which I think is utter nonsense. We are many and varied races (although undeniably all of a shared class)
We can all overlook and agree to not disagree.
We have differing opinions on abortion, on casual sex, and euthanasia. That's all up for debate. And you're right often we don't bother with the aggro and individually carry out our respective passions in other circles

The trans issue is not like that on my circle. It's firmly not. Not like those other divisive opinions but more akin to my having said I support nazism and eugenics.

I don’t want only ‘gender neutral’ toilets and change rooms thanks. I find any person who makes statements like this really has no concept of what those spaces are used for. And likely never had to deal with infants and children and elderly parents.

In addition to, fine. But no. Gender neutral only would mean many women will end up self excluding because some people decided it was a great idea to listen to people who don’t have the life experiences that make life more complex than just going to the toilet for a pee. It is actually laughable when I hear that phrase ‘we just want to pee’ because that has not been my experience as a female in a toilet since I was old
enough to remember. And it is just another signal that those demanding access to female single sex space or demanding that all spaces be mixed sex/gender neutral have little understanding.

I would add that, as a matter of respect, people should respect each other's gender identities (eg use of preferred pronouns etc) regardless of their own beliefs about the immutability of sex.

Unfortunately, my experience is that TRAs and transgender people nearly always demand that I use the pronouns and names they choose. So they force me into a position where I cannot use them ‘as a matter of respect’, and if I don’t comply, I am deemed to be disrespectful. When it comes to my own son, the request or demand is that I must lie to him and about him, with a veiled threat of estrangement if I am truthful.

You see, some people’s truth is supposedly more truthful than others’ truth, and it no longer depends on verifiable, physical reality. I have no doubt that it is unpleasant when someone calls you by a name you have rejected, or reminds you of physical reality you would prefer not to acknowledge; but is also very distressing to be told you no longer have a son and that you must pretend that this is true, or you are a transphobic bigot. I no longer care if I am seen as transphobic, because the word is meaningless. I love my son. I am not afraid of him nor do I hate him. Every time I see him or hear him, I am reminded of the truth of his male sex, because that cannot be hidden by a dress, or by taking hormones, or by surgery, or by him behaving less stereotypically masculine or more stereotypically feminine.

It's really heartening all the people saying they consider themselves TRAs but respect single sex rights/space

I am struggling a bit though to see how this is significantly different to what JKR said (www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/) but has been, shall we say not well received on the whole it would seem, by the trans community?

OP people are losing their jobs over this. They’re losing their friends. Women have been punched in the face. JK Rowling has had ‘enough death threats to paper her house’.

For the crime of saying sex matters. That’s it.

Respectfully - You’ve not been paying attention.

Does your support extend to allowing males to use any female-only space (except for women's sports which you already mentioned)? Because this violation of boundaries without consent is one of the most fundamental problems: it's very rare to find a 'trans woman' who has no intention whatsoever of using women's spaces.

I can't see any middle ground where women don't have to give up their hard won sex based rights.
Back in the day there was huge sympathy for transsexuals, a very small number of people just wanting to get on with their lives in peace.
Then along came a collection of dubious fellow travellers and then Stonewall chose to follow the money.
Now we have a world in which young lesbians and gay men are persuaded they are born in the wrong bodies.

I'm tired of having to justify what a woman is and why we are not non-men.