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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone in the middle?

1000 replies

piesforever · 19/10/2023 22:32

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

OP posts:
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MargotBamborough · 26/10/2023 16:21

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 26/10/2023 16:00

I can see the point of third spaces, and I think that this is where we are most likely to find some sort of middle ground.
The problem is where there are third spaces or suggestions of third spaces those seeking validation still insist on choosing women's/female spaces. IamSarah isn't trying to ban TW from the rape crisis centre, just to have one group that is a single sex female only space. Along side the mixed sex single gender and the Trans group and the male group but nope, not allow women can have nothing.

Edited

Yes, but then when that happens we can tell them to fuck off with zero guilt.

Because then it will be absolutely crystal clear that this is not about safety or dignity, it is about using women for validation.

The chorus of "be kind" will be somewhat quieter then.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/10/2023 16:28

So I can see the point of third spaces, and I think that this is where we are most likely to find some sort of middle ground.

Mixed sex spaces, sure.

Spaces for people who are somehow "not their sex" whether or not this means they are "the other sex", no. Because it's accepting within society the idea that certain character traits or preferances are naturally associated with biological sex and that's bad for society as a whole, and women in particular. I can't get behind any "solution" that is built on gender stereotypes because gender stereotypes are a bad thing. It's not true middle ground, it's a step in the wrong direction.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/10/2023 16:35

Agree. Perfectly put.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 16:38

MargotBamborough · 26/10/2023 16:21

Yes, but then when that happens we can tell them to fuck off with zero guilt.

Because then it will be absolutely crystal clear that this is not about safety or dignity, it is about using women for validation.

The chorus of "be kind" will be somewhat quieter then.

How long do we wait?

We have to make enough space and prove men are still using womens spaces.

It just seems like an excerise in time wasting to me. Again, if men wanted separate space from other men why wouldnt it be one of their first demands.

I think its going to take a massive safeguarding fail before people stop being kind. Afterall, we have rapists in womens prisons, women raped on hospital wards and lied to, but the 'be kind' isnt getting quieter yet. I think is goingbto take more than izzard still queuing at the ladies.

DeanElderberry · 26/10/2023 16:40

It would only be a matter of time before someone moved on from 'I can't use men's spaces because I'm not a man because men are . . . [insert absurd stereotype of choice] . . . ' to 'I can't use mixed sex spaces because I'm not a mixed sex space using person because mixed sex space users are . . . [insert absurd stereotype of choice] . . . '

The world cannot revolve around the excessively egocentric. There is no middle ground.

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 16:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 26/10/2023 16:28

So I can see the point of third spaces, and I think that this is where we are most likely to find some sort of middle ground.

Mixed sex spaces, sure.

Spaces for people who are somehow "not their sex" whether or not this means they are "the other sex", no. Because it's accepting within society the idea that certain character traits or preferances are naturally associated with biological sex and that's bad for society as a whole, and women in particular. I can't get behind any "solution" that is built on gender stereotypes because gender stereotypes are a bad thing. It's not true middle ground, it's a step in the wrong direction.

I don't see anything that goes beyond additional mixed/uni sex spaces in what's been put forward:

  1. Single sex spaces without exception, segregated by sex
  2. Additional unisex/gender-neutral spaces as an alternative

On a trial basis to validate if it is viable.

Example wording for point 1 on the women's facilities as follows:

"These facilities are for people born female. If you were not born female please use the male facilities to your left or the gender neutral facilities immediately behind you. Thank you for your cooperation."

None of that requires an understanding of anyone else's belief.

And even India would struggle to argue that India was born female.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 16:55

Spaces for people who are somehow "not their sex" whether or not this means they are "the other sex", no. Because it's accepting within society the idea that certain character traits or preferances are naturally associated with biological sex and that's bad for society as a whole, and women in particular. I can't get behind any "solution" that is built on gender stereotypes because gender stereotypes are a bad thing. It's not true middle ground, it's a step in the wrong direction.

Its reinforcing gender ideology onto society. Its especial harmful for children.

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 16:57

DeanElderberry · 26/10/2023 16:01

I would further suggest that the unwell should be protected from acts of self harm (including surgery and messing with their endocrine systems) while they are under that delusion - not just while they are still children, but as adults. I realise that would damage a massively profitable industry, but it would prevent a lot of human misery.

I know anorexia has a very high death rate for a mental illness, but there are also many people who survive it and are able to live safe adult lives afterwards, as a result of MH interventions.

Agreed. But that's a whole other topic within the debate.

This is my primary interest topic. Specifically, in priority order:

  1. helping my daughter
  2. helping other autistic, adolescent girls (the biggest cohort in Tavistock referrals, when you consider 48% of referrals are autistic and there has been a 5000% increase in girls being referred)
  3. contributing towards the resolution of boundary crossing which impacts women, giris and LGB people

My view is that I can't achieve 1 (or, by extension 2) without 3 being in place. And that 3 can't be in place unless debate happens, where different viewpoints are listened to and considered for accommodation. As long as they don't impact others.

We're getting towards the thread being full now.

I'll happily carry on if a new one starts but I'm not going to start it.

The "middle ground" is not an easy plot on which to stand because, as has been said lots, accepting any change to the word woman/girl/female and accepting transwomen in women's spaces is a hard no. However, I agree with @MargotBamborough that we've found some very interesting middle ground discussion points.

I do hope you consider taking this forward outside of mumsnet @AlphaTransWoman I can't imagine it'd be easy but I think there are some great ideas being mooted.

IDontHateRainbows · 26/10/2023 16:58

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 16:42

I don't see anything that goes beyond additional mixed/uni sex spaces in what's been put forward:

  1. Single sex spaces without exception, segregated by sex
  2. Additional unisex/gender-neutral spaces as an alternative

On a trial basis to validate if it is viable.

Example wording for point 1 on the women's facilities as follows:

"These facilities are for people born female. If you were not born female please use the male facilities to your left or the gender neutral facilities immediately behind you. Thank you for your cooperation."

None of that requires an understanding of anyone else's belief.

And even India would struggle to argue that India was born female.

Yes but given the MO of 'change the language to get your own way' surely they will just redefine 'female'? Or 'born'?

JanesLittleGirl · 26/10/2023 16:58

And even India would struggle to argue that India was born female

You think?

India would happily that India was born female and has simply aligned India's body to match India's birth status. Delusion works best when you can bend reality.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/10/2023 16:58

They are male though. Losing sight of that isn't helpful.

AlphaTransWoman · 26/10/2023 16:59

Well, I'm actually more positive than I was before this thread that some sort of compromise might be attainable. At the very least, some practical solutions might be found even where there are seemingly irreconcilable philosophical disagreements.

But is is going to take a lot of work and a willingness to engage constructively on both sides. For example, I think I need to get some more internal debate going within the TRA community on the distinction between what trans people would ideally want and what we actually need to live in dignity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/10/2023 17:02

For example, I think I need to get some more internal debate going within the TRA community on the distinction between what trans people would ideally want and what we actually need to live in dignity.

You do that, and then the TRA side can try to get back some of the lost goodwill they had from over-generous women in the past who now feel taken advantage of, as well as the ones who were never consulted on whether they wanted their spaces used by males.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 26/10/2023 17:03

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 16:57

Agreed. But that's a whole other topic within the debate.

This is my primary interest topic. Specifically, in priority order:

  1. helping my daughter
  2. helping other autistic, adolescent girls (the biggest cohort in Tavistock referrals, when you consider 48% of referrals are autistic and there has been a 5000% increase in girls being referred)
  3. contributing towards the resolution of boundary crossing which impacts women, giris and LGB people

My view is that I can't achieve 1 (or, by extension 2) without 3 being in place. And that 3 can't be in place unless debate happens, where different viewpoints are listened to and considered for accommodation. As long as they don't impact others.

We're getting towards the thread being full now.

I'll happily carry on if a new one starts but I'm not going to start it.

The "middle ground" is not an easy plot on which to stand because, as has been said lots, accepting any change to the word woman/girl/female and accepting transwomen in women's spaces is a hard no. However, I agree with @MargotBamborough that we've found some very interesting middle ground discussion points.

I do hope you consider taking this forward outside of mumsnet @AlphaTransWoman I can't imagine it'd be easy but I think there are some great ideas being mooted.

A mixed-sex "third space" isn't going to protect your daughter, unless you assume she wont be one of the women using it?

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 17:03

IDontHateRainbows · 26/10/2023 16:58

Yes but given the MO of 'change the language to get your own way' surely they will just redefine 'female'? Or 'born'?

That's where holding the line comes in. That's a firm no.

The word "female" is not for taking. Not with a GRC or anything else. People can see what's going on in sports for a start. There are lots of people saying no.

The word "born" would take some linguistic sleight of hand skills way beyond that seen so far by any person or organisation.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/10/2023 17:06

It can start with you, Alpha. You go to Reddit or wherever and float ideas. The trans community can look at how they can respect women more and what reasonable adjustments they think could conceivably be made for their identity. And then women can say whether that works for us. And hopefully we'd then all understand each other better.

Froodwithatowel · 26/10/2023 17:10

The constructiveness is going to have to go both ways, with recognition from male people that their distress and need to try and disguise their reality cannot be at the price of them not being that bothered about women's distress and need to be a separate sex class. And that it's not up to women to soothe their distress and hide reality at the expense of their needs and equality. Because that's sexism and oppression just with guilt, coercion and cry bullying.

It is very easy to do third spaces. The blueprint was in the creation of accessible spaces for the disabled, it's been done. You build it into law, you require proportionate provision, you provide government and local authority grants and people to go and spread the word, sympathise that on the surface change is hard and someone's moved the cheese and remind that this has got to get done. And about five years later most places will have them.

People with TQ+ identities will have to accept that societal progress takes time and they cannot just mug women for their resources and let women suck up the exclusion until this happens on the grounds that it's unbearably sad for them but doesn't matter when it's only women suffering. Sadly I've seen way too much of this dominating, inconsiderate and misogynist behaviour. And once third spaces are there at least women who wish to use them are consenting to be in there with males and consenting to the risks they are taking. Their body, their choice. No woman is being forced, no woman is left without accessible provision.

However you will then however have males like Willoughby slamming open the door to the female space to triumphantly declare how female they are being in the female space and quite gleeful really about literally pissing on women's territory and excluding women that they cannot subordinate any other way. And yelling that unless you check their genitals and DNA at the door you can't stop them. And who's going to stand at the door anyway of every woman's space, arguing with a loud, angry, scary and not very well balanced male?

And this is the issue. The thin end of the wedge is a sad male saying please pretend, you don't get how sad I feel, I promise to not hurt you, just be kind a little bit. The middle end is males excluding women and shouting that they are female, so lesbians pants off and line up, and women who won't be props in their fantasy will be punished by exclusion/for hate crimes. And the end is Isla Bryson and co raping and harming women in women's spaces. But they are all the wedge. The thin end is just opening the way for the others.

So the appeals for pity aren't doing much really. We've tried compromise. Men with and without gender identities broke it. Women's boundaries and needs are nowhere on the radar. And no one cares how they feel. It is at this point highly sexist to require they continue to bend and trust and sacrifice out of pity for male feelings about this. My sympathy now is entirely with women and their needs, and their best interests. Because if I don't care, no one else is going to do it for me or worry about making me sad.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2023 17:12

AlphaTransWoman · 26/10/2023 16:59

Well, I'm actually more positive than I was before this thread that some sort of compromise might be attainable. At the very least, some practical solutions might be found even where there are seemingly irreconcilable philosophical disagreements.

But is is going to take a lot of work and a willingness to engage constructively on both sides. For example, I think I need to get some more internal debate going within the TRA community on the distinction between what trans people would ideally want and what we actually need to live in dignity.

I wish you well, and I suggest you maybe look into other trans people who have already done this work. They've been vilified brutally and mercilessly for it, so I would suggest going cautiously and be prepared for pushback.

Try Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander, Buck Angel, Scott Newgent for starters.

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 17:16

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 26/10/2023 17:03

A mixed-sex "third space" isn't going to protect your daughter, unless you assume she wont be one of the women using it?

I'm doing plenty to help my daughter directly.

Point 3 (and third spaces, relating to point 3) helps her indirectly because addressing it helps to tackle a lot of what is impacting her directly as well.

I appreciate that the comment about what I assume my daughter will be doing in the future is unlikely to be intended as hurtful/personal so I won't take it that way. All I'll say in response is that I feel incredibly angry (and scared for her) about the societal influences that are impacting my daughter ATM and I'm doing everything I can on that front. I am also very motivated by helping others in her situation.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 17:20

How does having a third space for 'non men' help children avoid thinking that sex is irrelevant or can be changed?

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 17:34

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 17:20

How does having a third space for 'non men' help children avoid thinking that sex is irrelevant or can be changed?

It doesn't.

DeanElderberry · 26/10/2023 18:11

Bonfirelady, we all bring our own experience, and our knowledge of the people we care about, to this and any discussion. For me, the lack of a proper mental health support pathway for people who start to imagine that they have a gender is central to understanding the harm being done to many of them by the current approach being pushed by the pharma industry. It is possible that that might be true of your daughter also.

I say 'imagine that they have a gender' because I don't believe anyone has a gender because I do not believe gender is a real thing.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 18:15

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 17:34

It doesn't.

Why would anyone create a space that will encourge children to believe that its possible for a man not to be a man, somehow?

Why actively work to breakdown safeguarding?

BonfireLady · 26/10/2023 18:31

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 26/10/2023 18:15

Why would anyone create a space that will encourge children to believe that its possible for a man not to be a man, somehow?

Why actively work to breakdown safeguarding?

The space that's being created is a unisex space.

That doesn't signpost anybody towards a belief in gender identity. Instead it accommodates the needs of a society where some people do hold that belief.

There is plenty that others (and I) are doing to help stop a compelled belief in gender identity being pushed on to my daughter. I won't tell her what to believe but I also won't enable anyone else to do that either. She currently has protection in place in her EHCP (school) and in CAMHS (mental health) that is specifically for her. To remove bias. We also talk lots, at her pace, about her feelings about her body. Additionally, her dad and I teach our children about online safety. I'm in plenty of conversations IRL to help with bias removal beyond just my daughter. If I honestly felt that taking the time to understand something from the viewpoint of a transwoman, and contribute to something that may help move on the No Debate situation on WRT women's spaces, I wouldn't be doing it. You're welcome to think I'm naive if you like.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/10/2023 18:37

You're welcome to think I'm naive if you like.

It comes from a place of experience of trans rights activists. It's not personal.

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