Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Mumsnet is not a huge mind, but your position sounds very much like the majority of people on here. What areas of disagreement do you see?

That's how most of us feel.

This is a significant difference between the gender ideologists and the gender criticals. Our perspective is outwards-looking: concern and protection for vulnerable people, as well looking out for women's rights. Their perspective is entirely inwards-looking: all must validate trans beliefs and trans-identified people must have extra rights.

Im quite sure everyone on here has sympathy for children and young adults caught up in this mess. And sympathy for people struggling with their mental health. And sympathy for women who have been raped in prisons, children who have been attacked by men dressed as women. Sympathy for women who have lost careers for just stating the simple truth.

What we don't have sympathy for is predatory males who use this weak spot in society as a way to access victims, and people who support these safeguarding weakspots in the name of making themselves out to be superior, compassionate people (shining their ego's whilst throwing vulnerable women and girls to the lions). Also have zero sympathy for narcisstic males who don't give a shit about women's rights they are destroying, and no sympathy for misogynistic men who use trans rights as a cover for intimidating women.

Short answer: Yes sympathy for vulnerable people. No sympathy for predators.

If you say any of what you've just said to TRAs you'll be branded a bigot. Watch out!

I'm not a 'gender critical'. Im just a plain ole atheist.

This is just how I feel.

I don't want any harm to come to trans people, I want them to be happy and safe and healthy.

BUT

I want women's spaces to remain for female born women such as prisons, toilets, changing rooms and sports.

@piesforever what do you think "supporting trans people" looks like, in reality?

@Sdpbody

I don't want any harm to come to trans people, I want them to be happy and safe and healthy.

I agree. That's why we want to see their workings that transitioning, and forcing everyone else to go along with it, actually does relieve gender dysphoria. And at the moment there is no evidence it does.

When you talk about tran people, do you just mean people with dysphoria, or do you mean to affirm everyone is of the gender they say they are?

Yes

It can feel like a lonely place though

In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Because when women said 'there's a bit of a issue here, can we have a chat about it?' they were met with no debate, no platforming, cancellation, threats of legal action and general demonisation. Scottish women were told that our concerns 'aren't valid' and then it became glaringly, political parties falling from grace, obvious that there was a problem that no amount of shouts of 'bigot!!!' could smooth away.

Women are absolutely furious. With bloody good reason.

You're not in the middle. TRAs will think you're a raging terf bigot with that outlook.

Yes, is is not fury at trans people, but fury at being ignored, silenced, cancelled, having our rights broken down without discussion, of our needs sidelined, of our safety made secondary to the feelings of men.

"Is anyone in the middle"... Yes. You've probably posted to the most "middlest" place.

None of us here will dogmatically cry "trans women are women, no debate" or call for women to "choke on dick".
Quite the opposite.

Most people here are looking for a middle ground eg third spaces that secure the protection of women while still allowing men who say they're women protection of their own.

Looking at how best to help children caught up in gender mania and how to help transwidows.

Looking at how best to move forward in a highly gendered society with first do no harm.

It bothers me to see people respond with counter claims "most people are x", that's pretty much saying "you're wrong, this is how it is". It's quite legitimate for different people to consume the same information, and process it differently, without either being objectively speaking correct. It's healthier to speak from the position of I, saying "my impression .." or "my feeling .."

I have to admit, I feel similarly to the OP, and tend to cautious whether I feel its safe to take part in some threads and how long to persist my engagement. I'm no wall flower, I just don't want to be involved in conversations that either aren't useful or what I consider toxic. I can cope, but why bother. Not on every thread, all the time, but frequently, that is how what I read makes me feel

Although I regard myself as a TRA, I consider myself to be "in the middle" in some ways insofar as I recognise the real problems posed by allowing male bodied people into female spaces even if they regard themselves as women.

Hence my support for gender neutral options whenever services and spaces are segregated by sex.

I think there is a significant issue with conflation.

Lots of people rail against gender and gendered expectations. I am vehemently against any suggestion that males or females should conform to societal expectations linked to gendered ideas. This thinking/concern would exist whether or not anyone was transgender.

Unfortunately, gender and gendered expectations are fundamentally important to transgendered people and do there is a conflict of interests.

I don't wish people harm because their interests and world views differ from mine. This includes people who want to amplify gender as opposed to challenge it.

My world views differing from others should not been considered 'anti-trans' or indicative or hate, because it isn't.

it is not 'unsympathetic' to have boundaries. If I state my boundaries but it doesn't mean I wish the other party harm.

ps. quote is not relevant but I don't know how to get rid of it!

AlphaTransWoman that's heartening to hear. I agree that additional gender neutral spaces and services are a good solution.

I would consider myself "in the middle" too OP.

@Brainworm agree, conflation, conflation of many issues. I've also learnt not to trust people's self defined position. I find it unreliable, and work out my understanding of their position from the things they say

I haven't said anything about your position or anybody else's, about their own point of view. I only called out spurious claims to know what most people here think

The question that society needs to work out is how do we reconcile our differing beliefs and all live together.

Silencing women and relating us to second class citizens and diminishing our pre-existing rights is not the answer. And neither is threatening us into compliance.

What does the middle ground look like to you, OP?

How do you propose to safeguard the rights of women and girls without awakening the ire of TRAs when you state the first boundary, say “no” to them for the first time?

Genuine question; no fucker else has managed it so far so I’m interested to know if you have any thoughts that haven’t yet been considered. But - full disclosure - I admit I’m also sceptical because many, many years in the women’s rights trenches have shown me that too many men simply don’t respect a woman’s “no” and that’s what’s required at some stage, in some places, if women are to retain any spaces of their own.

did you see the final line of my post? I said that this was nothing to do with your quote but I couldn't remove it from the post.

(however I do think most women on here are sympathetic.)

Clearly not, sorry

The common ground:

We are all human born into sexed bodies.

Our sexed bodies are different.

We should be able to access spaces exclusively which cater to our sexed bodies.

If a person wishes to change sex, it is not possible. The person may wish to present themselves as the opposite sex, but they will remain the sex they are born with the strengths and weaknesses.

People who do not wish to use changing room, toilets etc of the sex they are born should be provided with gender neutral spaces, respecting the sexed bodies of the people they wish to be. There should be sporting teams specifically for these people. They should have representation for their needs but not at the expense of people who do not believe in gender or attempt to be the opposite gender.

Respect is required from all sides. No threats of violence, intimidation, emotional manipulation, bullying, or loud protests outside places where people meet to speak. No joining groups and destroying them in search of ‘validation’.

No reporting people who hold beliefs different from yours.

Is that enough?