Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Why do you think this risk only occurs in men's toilets? If men want to be violent to other men they can be violent anywhere.

Are other men who violent men might want to attack also at particular risk in men's toilets? For example gay men, disabled men, foreign men, ethnic minorities etc.

Will do.
I'm only commenting on the posts in this thread here. I'm very aware that there is more context out there and will be looking at it.

And I am going to repeat this as I cannot remember which thread I pointed this out to alpha.

For any person breezily saying ‘change all toilets to mixed sex’ or gender neutral or whatever term people want to use, is not a solution. The only people saying that are those who lead lives with simple toilet needs. It doesn’t suit many other needs female people have for toilet use. It also doesn’t suit some safety needs either. Such as safety of people who fall or fall unconscious in a fully sealed cubicle. Or at schools where this happens and couples is the school toilets for sex. Or the fact that these mixed sex toilets have been reported to be more unsafe for women and girls for many reasons.

So, those people who declare making all toilets mixed sex also have not been listening to women and girls stating their needs. And they make that declaration from ignoring the reasons to simplify female toilet use for the ease of saying they have the solution.

There needs to be third spaces as often discussed.

What needs to also happen is that all male adults and adolescents need to fully respect the word ‘no’ and to not enter those spaces.

Even if "lack of self confidence" were the reason why women need all women shortlists, it wouldn't necessarily follow that trans women need them.

Think about how women are less likely to apply for a job if they meet nine out of the ten published criteria whereas men will apply even if they only meet five, and then probably negotiate a higher starting salary.

Then think about trans women coming along and telling women that they know better than women do about what it means to be a woman. Upon being told that they don't meet the criteria for being a woman, they just unilaterally change the criteria.

That's very male behaviour. If they actually were women, surely they'd be suffering from impostor syndrome and plagued with self doubt.

Who is saying change all toilets to gender-neutral/single sex?
I've not seen that called for anywhere on the FWR board.

Great summary of the issues.

They can indeed.

I would imagine that transwomen are more vulnerable to men being violent (particularly where there is an intolerance motive) in toilets and changing rooms than in other spaces.

I also believe that women are more vulnerable to men being violent (particularly where there is a sexual assault motive) in toilets and changing rooms than in other spaces.

It is posted regularly enough by enough posters to be something I have picked up on. Sometimes it is by posters who seek to shame regular posters on this board. It is a dismissive tactic to minimise the need for discussion and portray those discussing it as ‘obsessive’. Sometimes it comes with attitudes such as the OP’s. That are more important issues etc etc etc.

And that is all well and good.

It is NO reason for a bloke in a dress to use the ladies. It is up to the blokes in dresses to either campaign for 3rd spaces and/or to make other men stop being violent towards them.

You know, how women have been doing since for-fucking-ever

Various public venues have changed the women's toilets to "gender neutral" to try and avoid the issue. Meaning that men get twice the toilet provision and get to choose the "gender neutral" toilets when they want to have a nice leisurely dump in a less skanky environment.

Agreed.

I'm expecting to feel less sympathetic towards Alpha as an individual if I get a sense of overall misogyny from the AMA thread. What I'm expecting to see is a lot of stereotyping that will piss me off but I'm open-minded on whether that will leave me with a feeling that Alpha has a hatred towards women or not.

Either way, that still doesn't change my position on empathy over all. Nor on the hard line boundaries.

Yep. It's awful and needs to be put right. This is not an acceptable solution.

meh i got a post deleted and i can't remember what i wrote. ho hum Is there a way to find out? (I wrote to mn last time and got no reply)

I knew I was really a woman 😉. My job application behaviour is clearly not that of a male.

I wondered if Alpha was trolling, a little as I wrote my first post, and more after that. But I chose to take them at face value (or, rather, to continue to appear to take them at face value) because:

If Alpha wasn't trolling
...I wanted to tread carefully
....it's an interesting debate!
...it explains to lurkers the reasoning behind our concerns

If Alpha was trolling
...I don't really care
...it's an interesting debate!
...it explains to lurkers the reasoning behind our concerns

Either way, we gain a great deal from threads like this. Alpha may or may not.

I don't get the impression that Alpha hates women. I get the impression that Alpha loves themself over everything (fairly reasonable in a person, tbh) and has zero regard of women's ACTUAL lives, hopes, fears and wants/needs.

Alpha has this idea in their head that women are under-competitive, subserviant, compliant doormats and wants some of that action for themself. Which is also fine, but as a sub to a dom (in a f/m or m/m relationship, i neither know nor care) not "as a woman" because they are not a woman.

I would be 100% (i AM 100%) behind any campaigns to erase Toxic Masculinity and persuade everyone, especially men, that it is OK to have feelings, to be a caring kind person, to like pink, to like wearing silky dresses if that's how they swing. But that makes them a man with those characteristics, not a woman.

I need to head out now.

That will come as welcome relief to anyone I'm currently pissing off, I'm sure 😁 So far only one person has declared this but there are potentially more. I'm posting in good faith but if that's not good enough, so be it. I'm not going to change how I engage, nor doubt myself. Been there, done that (doubting whether there is any value to what I say) on previous threads. Not wearing that t-shirt again.This is an important debate and all styles of engagement (not trolling, obviously) help IMO.

Anyway, I'll be back for a read through of the thread later and will also set aside some time to read the AMA thread.

I think it called a poster a ‘man’ who doesn’t want to be reminder they are a man in the common usage of the word.

I consider it a sign that the thread is still being read even if it is just to pick off reportable posts to target.

And women are already the ones standing in a long queue while the men nip in and out of the men's loos.

Recently I went to the theatre with DH. In the break I wanted a loo and a drink - he said, "Well you go and get the drinks in while I go to the loo first." I said, "Er, no, I'll run to the loo to beat the queue while YOU get the drinks in." By the time I came out of the loo there was a massive queue for the ladies - and still none for the men's.

Why is this suddenly all about you ?? ta ta then have a good afternoon.

Let’s not get confused by what misogyny is. Does the poster in question actively ‘hate’ women? Not according to them.

Does their actions and words show a motivation that can be categorised as hateful towards female people? Yes.

Are they repeating notions that are harmful to women and were either initially conceptualised by people who hate women and those notions are still being perpetuated by others in society? Yes. Yes they are. With so many posts.

By the way, not sure if anyone posted this thread here as an example as to why regular posters have such a sense of deja vu. While some of these threads are posted in good faith, this one was always one to be suspicious of. With good reason as this OP flounced which was not unexpected if people recognised this OP.

This thread though linked below might be of interest. But this ‘middle ground’ discussion is a regular occurrence.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4909353-how-do-we-find-a-middle-ground?page=1

The position also then misses a significant point too, that what should have always been happening and should immediately start happening is the campaign to make male toilets safe for ALL males. Where is that campaign? Ignored as an option because the discussion revolves around and around never changing male patterns of behaviour. Just emotional manipulating and gaslighting female people that they are the issue and need to change our toilet usage, our needs for privacy and reframe our traumas to allow just some of these male individuals into our single sex spaces.

Yes, this. All those signs directed to women about "if you think someone's in the wrong toilet - just be kind" those should be applied to men's toilets and directed at men. "If you see a man not fulfilling traditionally manly stereotypes then let them use the toilet unmolested". There may be places where men might be at risk from other men; the answer is never that some men should therefore use women's toilets.

And the same goes for e.g. prisons, shelters. Male violence to gender non-conforming males is not a problem for women to solve, and should never be solved by putting some men in with women.

I'm not feeling well and I've nothing better to do, so i thought I'd Fisk the OP (anyone remember Fisking?) to see what the actual point of this thread is.

All I see on here is GC rants.

I would like to see examples of this. Not going back to the dawn of MN but maybe over the last 6 years.

I am in the middle, I support trans people

How does this support manifest itself? what is OP supporting them to do?

but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport,

there is no gender specific sport. There is sex specific sport, and biological males should not be in biological women's sports. They are very welcome to take part in as much sport they want in the correct sex category. In fact I'd recommend it, sport and the endorphins it releases is good for the soul.

and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure,

adopting the stereotypical actions/clothing of the opposite gender? have at it. I am all for shattering gender stereotypes.

especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome.

You don't need hormones to change gender. You can take hormones and have surgeries to change your body shape. Therapy should be more widely used. not instant affirmation but proper therapy to explore the person's feelings. Anyone under the age of legal majority should not be given anything that is permanent, or drugs/hormones that have not had serious longitudinal studies carried out on them. Adults should have to pay for all their own treatments unless they have a proper and sound diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria.

Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"?

I feel sympathy for anyone with mental health issues. I grew up with a lot of people with EDs and body dysmorphia. We did not agree with anorexic girls that yes, they are the size of a hippo and should exist only on celery and ice cubes (one of my school friends)

I feel much more sympathy for women who are now self-excluding from public life and places due to whatever reason. I feel more sympathy for women who are pushed out of opportunities due to TW muscling in on all the good bits of womanhood but not the worst parts. Women have achieved very little, in the grand scheme of things, due to huge efforts. And these have been swept away in the blink of an eye.

In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

I'm not furious all the time. I do get furious when a plopper comes in with unsubstianted claims (only reads GC rants, mn is transphobic yadda yadda). And i have zero need to find common ground here. People who want extras need to campaign for them. And as long as they are not encroaching on women's hard won spaces and rights: i will support them.

I really need to get out more but I searched other posts from Pies, our middle-ground advocate, and it was illuminating. They seem to think MN is full of people obsessed with the trans issue when there are much more important things to think about. So why start a thread about trans stuff if you don’t think people should be wasting their breath talking about it?