Page 21 | Anyone in the middle?

piesforever · 2023-10-19T21:32:41+00:00

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

ApocalipstickNow · 22/10/2023 15:12

FWIW I don’t think Alpha hates women, just buys into a fiction of soft, nicely dressed, emotional submissive people being all under an umbrella term “woman”. Which is a line of thinking feminists have been kicking against for decades.

It’s a cage.

I don’t want to be in that cage. Alpha does. Alpha needs me, my 9 year old daughter and all the rest of us to agree to go in the cage so other fluffy transwomen can go in.

it diminishes us. It limits us. I don’t care if a man says “you are submissive and emotional and I love that! Thumbs up!” or if they say “you are submissive and emotional and I despise that.”

None of it benefits women. Much of it is harmful.

This is fairly basic feminist stuff.

Taylorscat · 22/10/2023 15:17

I rarely post as am so in the middle I get attacked from both extremes, have had a terrible time on this board in the past which has modified my original very GC position because I can see now that the debate is entirely toxic across the board.

my view now is summarised by:

I can’t use the toilets at work as they are gender neutral with a door off the corridor and I don’t feel safe due to past trauma. I raised this at work but obvs got dismissed as a terf.

I swim x5 a week and use gender neutral changing rooms - open space with lots of individual cubicles - I feel completely fine and safe.

therefore it seems obvious that there needs to be much more proper debate about this - gender neutral can work but it needs to be set up properly and not just converting women’s spaces to gender neutral. But this isn’t possible while there are pile ons from both sides.

I’ll never call a trans woman just a ‘woman’ but I’m perfectly happy using whatever pronouns someone prefers. I never ever use pronouns myself and have deleted this line from mandatory work place signature.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 15:25

CorruptedCauldron · 22/10/2023 15:03

I really need to get out more but I searched other posts from Pies, our middle-ground advocate, and it was illuminating. They seem to think MN is full of people obsessed with the trans issue when there are much more important things to think about. So why start a thread about trans stuff if you don’t think people should be wasting their breath talking about it?

It is the same old motivation perhaps? To gather answers that assure the poster is not like the people they accuse of obsession and ranting. The old ‘I am not like those [insert word such as ranty, mean, hateful, loud, deplorable whatever] women over there at all!’

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 15:43

CorruptedCauldron · 22/10/2023 15:03

I really need to get out more but I searched other posts from Pies, our middle-ground advocate, and it was illuminating. They seem to think MN is full of people obsessed with the trans issue when there are much more important things to think about. So why start a thread about trans stuff if you don’t think people should be wasting their breath talking about it?

To be fair, if you searched my username you'd also only see posts on gender issues. I have another username for other topics.

literalviolence · 22/10/2023 16:12

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 11:07

Yep, I get what you're saying. All toilets are gender neutral for anyone who doesn't have a belief in gender identity.

That's why I may start using the term unisex instead of gender-neutral to clarify what I mean. That way I'm not mixing up my terminology, which may lead to my words being confusing, I'm sticking with my own in relation to sex immutability.

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I agree that unisex is the right descriptor. Anything else just feeds the obfuscations which men are using as a tool in their current version of misogyny.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/10/2023 16:24

Any examples of these “piles ons”? Or is just women saying wearily for the bazilionth time “no you can’t have women’s spaces, they’re for women”

OldCrone · 22/10/2023 17:00

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 13:51

They can indeed.

I would imagine that transwomen are more vulnerable to men being violent (particularly where there is an intolerance motive) in toilets and changing rooms than in other spaces.

I also believe that women are more vulnerable to men being violent (particularly where there is a sexual assault motive) in toilets and changing rooms than in other spaces.

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You didn't answer my question. Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

TRAs say that men who identify as trans are vulnerable in men's toilets. But if men's toilets are such violent places, then surely there are other groups who might be targeted, like gay men or disabled men or foreign men.

Do you have any evidence that any of this is actually happening or are you just repeating what TRAs on twitter have said?

And if men's toilets really are such dangerous places for everyone who isn't a white heterosexual male-presenting man, then surely men should be sorting out why there are so many racists, homophobes and generally violent people amongst them. Are most men's toilets really full of homophobic Nazis who'll kick the shit out of anyone they don't like the look of? Or is this just a fiction created by TRAs who want access to women's toilets?

I'm pretty sure that most men just use the toilet and get out asap and don't care who else is using them.

nepeta · 22/10/2023 17:20

I don't see how turning toilets into mixed sex ones (euphemistically called gender-neutral) would make them safer for transgender people. They certainly would not make them safer for women.

In both cases there could be men in those toilets at the same time as there would be women or transwomen, and in both cases there would be no way of being supported if one complains about the presence of a troubling man in advance of any attack.

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 17:34

OldCrone · 22/10/2023 17:00

You didn't answer my question. Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

TRAs say that men who identify as trans are vulnerable in men's toilets. But if men's toilets are such violent places, then surely there are other groups who might be targeted, like gay men or disabled men or foreign men.

Do you have any evidence that any of this is actually happening or are you just repeating what TRAs on twitter have said?

And if men's toilets really are such dangerous places for everyone who isn't a white heterosexual male-presenting man, then surely men should be sorting out why there are so many racists, homophobes and generally violent people amongst them. Are most men's toilets really full of homophobic Nazis who'll kick the shit out of anyone they don't like the look of? Or is this just a fiction created by TRAs who want access to women's toilets?

I'm pretty sure that most men just use the toilet and get out asap and don't care who else is using them.

Show quote history

Just asked my DH this . In his opinion most men just go in do what they have to do and out . He also said even though he is 6 foot odd he feels really un- nerved when a man in womens clothing was in the mens toilets so he can understand how frightened we are as women dealing with it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 17:43

Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

This is important.

I agree with @BonfireLady that a man in a dress is going to be a target for some men. I've seen enough drunk male aggression to anyone who looks a bit different, or who they believe to be challenging them by catching their eye while not looking the same. As far as I can tell, the fury at anyone who steps out of line is a mixture of fury that someone isn't obeying the rules they think should be obeyed and a belief that men who reject (toxic) masculine norms are belittling and taking the piss out of those who do.

But.

As @OldCrone says, it's not just men in dresses. Be the wrong race, the wrong accent, the wrong body shape, the wrong clothes, laugh at the wrong time - an angry man doesn't need much excuse.

So why are we (society) even considering that trans women only might have a justifiable "need" to be allowed in the ladies? Simply because, and for no more solid reason than, unlike any other out group of men who risk and fear male aggression, this out group has laid claim to the name "woman" and thereby somehow convinced a lot of people that they have a right to female spaces that is not shared by other vulnerable men.

It's a con.

So trying to find some sort of "middle ground" for these "women" is to fall for a con. Because to even consider that "trans women" might have this claim is to allow that basic, fundamental lie to slip past unchallenged. That is why they want us to argue about the details toilets or third spaces or exactly where to draw the line - because it allows them to define the playing field as where the line needs to be, when the question should be why on earth there need to be a line anywhere other than the one that is already there between Man and Woman.

floranginajelly · 22/10/2023 17:45

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 17:43

Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

This is important.

I agree with @BonfireLady that a man in a dress is going to be a target for some men. I've seen enough drunk male aggression to anyone who looks a bit different, or who they believe to be challenging them by catching their eye while not looking the same. As far as I can tell, the fury at anyone who steps out of line is a mixture of fury that someone isn't obeying the rules they think should be obeyed and a belief that men who reject (toxic) masculine norms are belittling and taking the piss out of those who do.

But.

As @OldCrone says, it's not just men in dresses. Be the wrong race, the wrong accent, the wrong body shape, the wrong clothes, laugh at the wrong time - an angry man doesn't need much excuse.

So why are we (society) even considering that trans women only might have a justifiable "need" to be allowed in the ladies? Simply because, and for no more solid reason than, unlike any other out group of men who risk and fear male aggression, this out group has laid claim to the name "woman" and thereby somehow convinced a lot of people that they have a right to female spaces that is not shared by other vulnerable men.

It's a con.

So trying to find some sort of "middle ground" for these "women" is to fall for a con. Because to even consider that "trans women" might have this claim is to allow that basic, fundamental lie to slip past unchallenged. That is why they want us to argue about the details toilets or third spaces or exactly where to draw the line - because it allows them to define the playing field as where the line needs to be, when the question should be why on earth there need to be a line anywhere other than the one that is already there between Man and Woman.

Agreed

MargotBamborough · 22/10/2023 18:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 17:43

Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

This is important.

I agree with @BonfireLady that a man in a dress is going to be a target for some men. I've seen enough drunk male aggression to anyone who looks a bit different, or who they believe to be challenging them by catching their eye while not looking the same. As far as I can tell, the fury at anyone who steps out of line is a mixture of fury that someone isn't obeying the rules they think should be obeyed and a belief that men who reject (toxic) masculine norms are belittling and taking the piss out of those who do.

But.

As @OldCrone says, it's not just men in dresses. Be the wrong race, the wrong accent, the wrong body shape, the wrong clothes, laugh at the wrong time - an angry man doesn't need much excuse.

So why are we (society) even considering that trans women only might have a justifiable "need" to be allowed in the ladies? Simply because, and for no more solid reason than, unlike any other out group of men who risk and fear male aggression, this out group has laid claim to the name "woman" and thereby somehow convinced a lot of people that they have a right to female spaces that is not shared by other vulnerable men.

It's a con.

So trying to find some sort of "middle ground" for these "women" is to fall for a con. Because to even consider that "trans women" might have this claim is to allow that basic, fundamental lie to slip past unchallenged. That is why they want us to argue about the details toilets or third spaces or exactly where to draw the line - because it allows them to define the playing field as where the line needs to be, when the question should be why on earth there need to be a line anywhere other than the one that is already there between Man and Woman.

I would also argue - and I recognise that this may be an unpopular opinion - but dressing in women's clothes is a choice.

It is a choice that people should be entitled to make, of course. Nobody should be discriminated against or attacked for what they are wearing.

But it is still a choice.

Women cannot disguise ourselves as men to escape oppression. Black people cannot make themselves appear white to avoid being shot by the police.

But a trans woman can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put some trousers on, grow a beard and go back to presenting as a man any time they feel like it.

They may feel, psychologically, that they cannot do this. But I suspect that if their life depended on it they would.

Other vulnerable groups do not have this possibility.

I can't help but feel that choosing to present in a way that makes you vulnerable is a choice people are more free to make in a society where the worst that is likely to happen to you is a little verbal abuse. I imagine that in societies where being a woman, or gender non conforming, is a lot more dangerous, fewer people are identifying as trans women.

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 18:08

OldCrone · 22/10/2023 17:00

You didn't answer my question. Do you think that men who identify as trans are the only men who are vulnerable in men's toilets? Or do you think that there are other men who might be targeted in a similar way by racists, homophobes, xenophobes or violent extremists who hate certain groups of people?

TRAs say that men who identify as trans are vulnerable in men's toilets. But if men's toilets are such violent places, then surely there are other groups who might be targeted, like gay men or disabled men or foreign men.

Do you have any evidence that any of this is actually happening or are you just repeating what TRAs on twitter have said?

And if men's toilets really are such dangerous places for everyone who isn't a white heterosexual male-presenting man, then surely men should be sorting out why there are so many racists, homophobes and generally violent people amongst them. Are most men's toilets really full of homophobic Nazis who'll kick the shit out of anyone they don't like the look of? Or is this just a fiction created by TRAs who want access to women's toilets?

I'm pretty sure that most men just use the toilet and get out asap and don't care who else is using them.

Show quote history

Yes. No one ever acknowledges the point about all the other vulnerable male people in the male toilets. It is usually crickets when the point is made, or someone pushes the point about feelings meaning special accommodations being made.

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 18:17

MargotBamborough · 22/10/2023 18:01

I would also argue - and I recognise that this may be an unpopular opinion - but dressing in women's clothes is a choice.

It is a choice that people should be entitled to make, of course. Nobody should be discriminated against or attacked for what they are wearing.

But it is still a choice.

Women cannot disguise ourselves as men to escape oppression. Black people cannot make themselves appear white to avoid being shot by the police.

But a trans woman can take their makeup off, cut their hair short, put some trousers on, grow a beard and go back to presenting as a man any time they feel like it.

They may feel, psychologically, that they cannot do this. But I suspect that if their life depended on it they would.

Other vulnerable groups do not have this possibility.

I can't help but feel that choosing to present in a way that makes you vulnerable is a choice people are more free to make in a society where the worst that is likely to happen to you is a little verbal abuse. I imagine that in societies where being a woman, or gender non conforming, is a lot more dangerous, fewer people are identifying as trans women.

Show quote history

This is true . I was sexualy abused because I was a female not because of what I was wearing I have had to put up with misogyny because I am a woman. So I refuse to share a female space with a man who is playing dress up . End of ! If a man thinks that his feelings are more important than my safety then that is absolutely dripping with misogyny and hidden agenda !!

ApocalipstickNow · 22/10/2023 18:23

There’s zero point in talking about middle ground until men are willing to change their behaviour and be kinder and more accepting.

Who used to beat up gay men? Who beat up Asian people? Gang of feminists? Or men?

whilst homophobia and racism haven’t gone away we are not in the 1970s any more. That wasn’t achieved by giving men a pass to be awful but expecting women to take care of everyone. Why is transgenderism different?

Forcing women to state men are women won’t stop violent men. Societal change is what’s needed. Why aren’t men being asked to do these things?

Because if men are kind and gentle and soft then why would any think they were women?

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 20:21

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 13:54

It is posted regularly enough by enough posters to be something I have picked up on. Sometimes it is by posters who seek to shame regular posters on this board. It is a dismissive tactic to minimise the need for discussion and portray those discussing it as ‘obsessive’. Sometimes it comes with attitudes such as the OP’s. That are more important issues etc etc etc.

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Ah OK. It's not something I've noticed myself but I'll look out for it.
I've certainly seen, outside of MN, plenty of people minimising the importance of "the toilet issue".
I'm sure I would have been one of them myself in the past, before I took the time to look in to this more and joined up the dots.

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 20:57

Catiette · 22/10/2023 14:02

I wondered if Alpha was trolling, a little as I wrote my first post, and more after that. But I chose to take them at face value (or, rather, to continue to appear to take them at face value) because:

If Alpha wasn't trolling
...I wanted to tread carefully
....it's an interesting debate!
...it explains to lurkers the reasoning behind our concerns

If Alpha was trolling
...I don't really care
...it's an interesting debate!
...it explains to lurkers the reasoning behind our concerns

Either way, we gain a great deal from threads like this. Alpha may or may not.

Edited

I've had chance to read the AMA thread now.
Truth be told, I read the first 10 pages, the last 5 and all of Alpha's comments.

TL:DR I didn't see it as trolling.

(Alpha, if you're reading this apologies that it's written in the third person. I don't want to address it directly to you because I could be completely wrong with my summary and I'm not an expert in this field at all)

My takeaway was this:
I see a neurodiverse (autistic) transwomen who has gender dysphoria. To have gender dysphoria someone needs to believe that they have a gender identity and that this doesn't match their sexed body.
I don't believe in gender identity, so I didn't find it surprising that there were a lot of sex-based stereotypes being given as explanations for "feeling like a woman". Whether we like it or not, there is often some truth in stereotypes. Women often are more empathetic than men. Not all women and not all men, obviously. It's also an a recognised issue in workplaces that on balance, many women don't behave as assertively as men - and that when some do, this can lead to them being seen as bitchy not leadership role models. Cheryl Sandberg covered this really well in her book Lean In IMO. I saw Alpha trying to acknowledge this general difference but then falling back on stereotypes. I'm not surprised at the huge pushback that Alpha received from the large number of GC women who have been calling out the misogyny in sexed-based stereotypes that have been dumped on girls and women, either as expectations or limitations, for years.
I didn't surprise me one bit that Alpha is neurodiverse. Processing the nuances of why stereotypes exist, not feeling a sense of belonging to the ones that have been "given" ("assigned at birth"... it's the expectations/limitations that are assigned IMO, not sex) may not be easy and the distress that can follow from this may well be very acute. I'm not suggesting that Alpha's belief in gender identity is somehow wrong. Just that perhaps there is some unpicking that could be done to help make sense of everything. A massive overreach on my part so I'll stop there on that one. If Alpha is happier identifying as a woman that's a good outcome.
I saw a few points where I fundamentally disagreed with what Alpha was asserting (women's awards for example) but I also saw an evolving discussion (the acknowledgement that rape isn't a woman's crime). I feel it ended in what may be a confusing place for Alpha but there was also a willingness to entertain the thought process that transwomen and women are different (the "third sex" suggestion).
There were several points of shared values e.g. transwomen don't belong in women's sports (I did see the word "some" but I suspect further conversation might lead to more common ground here), that children shouldn't transition, that additional unisex toilets were a good idea.

Here are some screenshots that resonated with me:

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:04

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 14:10

Why is this suddenly all about you ?? ta ta then have a good afternoon.

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It's not. I was being told I was getting annoying. I was (and remain) very interested in this thread.
Sometimes posters say things, the conversation gets difficult and they disappear. I was simply pre-empting this as an assumption.

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:20

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 17:34

Just asked my DH this . In his opinion most men just go in do what they have to do and out . He also said even though he is 6 foot odd he feels really un- nerved when a man in womens clothing was in the mens toilets so he can understand how frightened we are as women dealing with it.

Show quote history

He also said even though he is 6 foot odd he feels really un- nerved when a man in womens clothing was in the mens toilets

I should imagine this is a fairly typical reaction from a man seeing a transwoman in the men's toilets. And I should also imagine that some men will handle their unease by being on the offensive. Obviously not all men, but perhaps enough to make transwomen feel unsafe.

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:23

nepeta · 22/10/2023 17:20

I don't see how turning toilets into mixed sex ones (euphemistically called gender-neutral) would make them safer for transgender people. They certainly would not make them safer for women.

In both cases there could be men in those toilets at the same time as there would be women or transwomen, and in both cases there would be no way of being supported if one complains about the presence of a troubling man in advance of any attack.

Agreed. I don't think many people (certainly not on this board) would want to see toilets like this in place.

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:31

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 18:08

Yes. No one ever acknowledges the point about all the other vulnerable male people in the male toilets. It is usually crickets when the point is made, or someone pushes the point about feelings meaning special accommodations being made.

Show quote history

Yes, lots of men may be vulnerable in men's toilets. But as going to the toilet is about getting partially undressed in some way, I would imagine that a transwoman may have more exposure to risk than someone who is disabled or is of a different race. Difficult to say but they may be a specific target for someone's hate based on mockery or teasing about whether they are a "chick with a dick" or similar. Simply because it's an environment involving genitals.

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 21:38

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:20

He also said even though he is 6 foot odd he feels really un- nerved when a man in womens clothing was in the mens toilets

I should imagine this is a fairly typical reaction from a man seeing a transwoman in the men's toilets. And I should also imagine that some men will handle their unease by being on the offensive. Obviously not all men, but perhaps enough to make transwomen feel unsafe.

Show quote history

No my DH does not act on the offensive . 🙄 He just gets the fuck out of there . My DH should not have to feel that way !

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 21:38

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:31

Yes, lots of men may be vulnerable in men's toilets. But as going to the toilet is about getting partially undressed in some way, I would imagine that a transwoman may have more exposure to risk than someone who is disabled or is of a different race. Difficult to say but they may be a specific target for someone's hate based on mockery or teasing about whether they are a "chick with a dick" or similar. Simply because it's an environment involving genitals.

Show quote history

Why are they more exposed? in what way are they more exposed?

Wiccan · 22/10/2023 21:43

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 20:57

I've had chance to read the AMA thread now.
Truth be told, I read the first 10 pages, the last 5 and all of Alpha's comments.

TL:DR I didn't see it as trolling.

(Alpha, if you're reading this apologies that it's written in the third person. I don't want to address it directly to you because I could be completely wrong with my summary and I'm not an expert in this field at all)

My takeaway was this:
I see a neurodiverse (autistic) transwomen who has gender dysphoria. To have gender dysphoria someone needs to believe that they have a gender identity and that this doesn't match their sexed body.
I don't believe in gender identity, so I didn't find it surprising that there were a lot of sex-based stereotypes being given as explanations for "feeling like a woman". Whether we like it or not, there is often some truth in stereotypes. Women often are more empathetic than men. Not all women and not all men, obviously. It's also an a recognised issue in workplaces that on balance, many women don't behave as assertively as men - and that when some do, this can lead to them being seen as bitchy not leadership role models. Cheryl Sandberg covered this really well in her book Lean In IMO. I saw Alpha trying to acknowledge this general difference but then falling back on stereotypes. I'm not surprised at the huge pushback that Alpha received from the large number of GC women who have been calling out the misogyny in sexed-based stereotypes that have been dumped on girls and women, either as expectations or limitations, for years.
I didn't surprise me one bit that Alpha is neurodiverse. Processing the nuances of why stereotypes exist, not feeling a sense of belonging to the ones that have been "given" ("assigned at birth"... it's the expectations/limitations that are assigned IMO, not sex) may not be easy and the distress that can follow from this may well be very acute. I'm not suggesting that Alpha's belief in gender identity is somehow wrong. Just that perhaps there is some unpicking that could be done to help make sense of everything. A massive overreach on my part so I'll stop there on that one. If Alpha is happier identifying as a woman that's a good outcome.
I saw a few points where I fundamentally disagreed with what Alpha was asserting (women's awards for example) but I also saw an evolving discussion (the acknowledgement that rape isn't a woman's crime). I feel it ended in what may be a confusing place for Alpha but there was also a willingness to entertain the thought process that transwomen and women are different (the "third sex" suggestion).
There were several points of shared values e.g. transwomen don't belong in women's sports (I did see the word "some" but I suspect further conversation might lead to more common ground here), that children shouldn't transition, that additional unisex toilets were a good idea.

Here are some screenshots that resonated with me:

Show quote history

Christ you actually look as though you're psycho evaluating everyone . Bloody bizarre .

BonfireLady · 22/10/2023 21:45

Helleofabore · 22/10/2023 21:38

Why are they more exposed? in what way are they more exposed?

Show quote history

... because it's an environment involving genitals. And men who are intolerant of differences may decide to mock a transwoman specifically about their genitals. Conjecture on my part, I accept.