Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

I've not ruled that out, having not read the AMA thread.
Either way, this particular thread is interesting to read and be a part of. I should also imagine it's very helpful for anyone who is new to this, or is struggling to get their head around stuff.
It's also a useful example that shows Mumsnet isn't an echo chamber and that difficult issues can be debated from multiple different viewpoints.

Can you explain why? On the AMA thread Alpha said that they looked like a bloke. Why would the men's toilets be a dangerous place for a bloke who looks like a bloke?

Thanks for posting this I've sent it to everyone I know 😂😂.

@BonfireLady

I have seen two transwomen use toilets in pubs (well, no I haven’t seen them in there, I used to drink in 3 different pubs that had a very similar crowd so regulars were often the same in all 3 so I saw them in the pub, but not the toilets. They used the men’s with no aggro as far as I am aware. Clearly not enough aggro that it stopped them).

At that time (we are talking before I was pregnant so a decade ago) they were known as transvestites or cross dressers as they both presented as men in their daily life and women for nights out.

As I say this was about a decade ago, so maybe things are worse now. None of the pubs were overly LGBTQ+ leaning probably if anything the crowd was a bit rock/indie vibes (but also popular for football on TV on a Saturday.)

(sorry to @ you btw I can’t quote on my phone)

That Mr Menno Y chromosome thing is so funny but omg where did he get the all the clips of delusional men whose bad dress sense doesn't (sadly) keep them 'down'?

Every time. All those male trollers (your fake gender ID don't mean jack shit when you're bullying women online), the one that spent a couple of days arguing you should all accept cis unquestionably, the one who claimed he was in the James Esses article spending another couple of days being passive aggressive, and our friend here just trying to be so reasonable, and so understanding stereotypes, and so wouldn't want to upset women.

I believe MN is now so well known as the place where women engage, but also where women can be taunted mercilessly.

Who knows who these guys are. Are they the types we see on Tik Tok, boasting of entering women's toilets or holding knives up to effigies of JKR? Are they the determined activist types, of the three letter acronym that dare not show its face, and who's lives work are to rub women's noses in it? Are they just bored incels who know MN is fair game?

My advice is not to engage with them. It's either a game of immediately apparent trolling, or a slow burn game of fake requests for acceptance and understanding.

Time for women to reclaim No Debate with these jokers.

What's your experience of men's toilets that makes you think they're dangerous places?

The impression I get is that most men go in there, do what they need to do whilst ignoring any other men in there, then leave. What do you think goes on?

Well, this is making me think of a Chogyam Trungpa teaching:

"It is easier to put on a pair of shoes than to wrap the earth in leather"

Instead of expending vast amounts of money trying to remodel the whole world to fit ever more specific requirements, we could encourage people to learn to be more flexible, adaptive, and resilient. We could address people's anxiety. We could ensure spaces are safe, clean, and usable and base decisions on statistical evidence and practical considerations.

I won't be part of an agenda to feminise men and erase women's rights .

I'd like to see some data on the number of trans women who have been the victim of a crime when using men's toilets.

Because if this isn't a thing that actually happens, I think we need to prioritise actual risk to women and girls from sharing these spaces with men over perceived risk to trans women from sharing these spaces with men.

I guess that depends what "looks like a bloke" means. On the assumption that it's describing someone who is recognisably of the male sex but wearing stereotypically female clothes, I would suggest there is a very real danger of encountering intolerant men in the men's toilets who may decide to demonstrate their feelings with hateful words or violence or both.

There are lots of intolerant men. This was demonstrated very well during the Bud Light backlash. The strongest male voices weren't calling out Dylan Mulvaney appropriating womanhood. They were objecting to their manly images being "girlified" and distancing themselves from this with some pretty awful comments. I said exactly that at the time on the MN thread. In fact I said that some of the comments coming from men really did sound like they fitted a sensible definition of transphobia. Not the nonsense definition of it that encompasses any heretic stance against the compelled belief in gender identity.

Statistically, men are more violent than women. Combine that with intolerance and there is a raised risk to transwomen in men's toilets.

Absolutely !

A reasonable ask, but given it's unlikely that many transwomen do use men's toilets it's unlikely this exists.
So we're left with a choice. Stalemate with "both sides" saying "prove it" or a reasonable endeavours approach to find a workable solution. Ignoring the protests of Málaga Airport transwomen of course.

Maybe it's just me ? But you are beginning to annoy me . I feel that you are overly sympathetic to trans women .

A valid point but I take the view that it's similar to how autism should be approached.
Bringing in reasonable adjustments (accommodations that help, such as the Sunflower lanyard scheme) combined with teaching autistic people strategies to build their resilience in order to navigate the reality of the world. I no longer go to autism parenting groups because resilience is now a forbidden word. They are collectively advocating for the equivalent of cladding the world in leather, which is ridiculous. Also they are very pro TWAW and "authentic self", which is a whole other issue.

Well given that women and girls have been attacked by biological males using women's toilets, I think it would be reasonable to say, "OK, this is causing a problem. So biological males need to use men's toilets, and if it turns out that there is a real risk for them too, as evidenced by things actually happening, we'll start thinking of another solution."

Fair enough.

So what happens in LGBT+ spaces?

Say a pub or club does a regular LGBT+ night, or is specifically marketed for that clientele or is just seen as a very safe space for LGBT+ people.

Presumably the gents is ok in there? Surely it’s not going to be full of gay or bisexual men ready to beat up transwomen for wearing female clothing?

And while I don’t think trans people should only be able to drink or socialise in LGBT+ places, why would TW fear being in a toilet full of gay men? It makes no sense! And how many pubs and clubs are happily shoving a rainbow or trans flag in their window? It can’t be hard to avoid pubs that are chock full of violent transphobic men can it?

Unless it’s all just a wobbly fantasy of victim hood?

Makes sense. A clear boundary is what is needed. I don't accept transwomen in women's toilets and have never said that I do 👍

In parallel I would hope that more transwomen would step forward like Miranda Yardley has done to advocate for third spaces.

I really really do recommend reading that AMA to see what TW mean when they say they have “women’s souls” or “are psychologically women” or whatever - because it’s AT BEST a romantic fantasy of what women are. It’s not based in reality whatsoever. And I don’t want to share with men who believe those things about women.

And you could try imagining every comment preceded with “man here!” and see how you feel about people making those statements- because if anyone rocked up here saying “man here! Women need all women short lists because they’re lacking in confidence!” they’d be ripped to bits not sympathised with.

“Combine that with intolerance and there is a raised risk to transwomen in men's toilets.”

And this may or may not be true in reality. There are no reports, yet there are male trans people who do still use the male toilets. However, this has been used as a lever, an emotionally manipulative lever, to then get access to female single sex spaces.

And it still misses completely the continuation of that line of argument. Do the female toilets then become accessible for all other vulnerable male people? This is exactly the same argument but with ‘gender feelings’ removed. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny at all.

Hence why the argument has to remain focused on why these male individuals are ‘women’ and the sleight of hand linguistic twist of the female toilets now becoming the ‘women’s’ toilets. Bringing along with it that dishonest argument that it was always a ‘women’s’ (ie gender not sex) toilet.

One for the ‘ladies’ because ‘female’ was not to be used. Even though everyone knew and understood it was for ‘female humans of any age group’. Because logically ‘women’s’ was a polite term as it included girls too.

So no. I tend to reject that male trans people are unsafe in the male toilets and will take some convincing evidence to change my mind.

The position also then misses a significant point too, that what should have always been happening and should immediately start happening is the campaign to make male toilets safe for ALL males. Where is that campaign? Ignored as an option because the discussion revolves around and around never changing male patterns of behaviour. Just emotional manipulating and gaslighting female people that they are the issue and need to change our toilet usage, our needs for privacy and reframe our traumas to allow just some of these male individuals into our single sex spaces.

If a pub is specifically advertising itself as LGBT friendly, it should be safe for transwomen to use men's toilets without worrying. I obviously can't speak on behalf of transwomen but hopefully there might be one reading this thread who can offer a comment on that.
I'm not going to tag Alpha in because I will respect the prevailing view here that any contribution from Alpha on this would be disingenuous. However, personally I would still engage and ask that question directly as I'm genuinely interested in what the answer would be or whether the question would remain unanswered.

And you could try imagining every comment preceded with “man here!” and see how you feel about people making those statements- because if anyone rocked up here saying “man here! Women need all women short lists because they’re lacking in confidence!” they’d be ripped to bits not sympathised with.

This is brilliant, I really like your advice of doing a pronouns-are-rohypnol type translation of whatever these males say.

This is why my preferred response is to neutrally try and ascertain exactly what their claim is.

If it is batshit, factually incorrect, bigoted and infuriating I trust that will be crystal clear, and doesn't need me to express any such responses on MN...

Let them speak!