Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

trying to be something you can’t become.

Can you understand why I might look at human history and conclude that, on balance, "men" is something bad?

But that is in your head and is how you feel. You don't get to push women aside and abuse our rights by cosplaying it. This is fucking serious for us and you don't understand that !

Why can't 'men' be just adult male human beings? We need terms for the two sexes, and belonging to one sex does not, in my view, require that we accept all things others have said about that sex or how it has been treated or has treated others. We are individuals, not spoonfuls of some generic genetic porridge.

The work I do requires that there is a name for those of us who are adult female human beings. I also require that name, because I don't have an abstract gender identity, but an embodied one, based on living all my life with a female body, how that has affected my life both directly and because others treat female people a certain way (in some societies in a horrible way, but in almost all societies with some sexism and misogyny). My embodied identity is invalidated if 'woman' becomes similar to clothing or a role that anyone can perform.

Those who have abstract, inner gender identities should create a new set of terms for them so that specific identities can be described and used in most social contexts. That would be a working compromise solution.

You may think men are bad . But you are a man and you don't get to hide on our side . You as a man are a risk to us . You think that we should be impressed because you want to be us . Well you're wrong .

If all toilets are single sex, then everyone will know it's appropriate for you to be in the gents with the urinals, no matter how you're presenting, because a woman wouldn't go in there. I don't think it's the problem you think it is.

I think you might be right.

I really want to be a woman because women are amazingly kind and loving people, and I love wearing women's clothing and thinking of myself as a woman. But maybe that's not enough. I don't have the biology. And maybe I don't have the emotional intelligence and empathy either. I think I proved that in spades in the AMA thread.

I really don't feel aligned with men (warriors, criminals, commanders, Donald Trump, etc). Maybe you are right and I should identify as a third kind of being? Just, like, a person?

What you have is a fetish . You cannot be a third type of person , another impossibility you cannot achieve. Not all women are loving and kind and not all men are warrior, criminals.

@AlphaTransWoman tbh what it sounds like to me is that you want to be male as you perceive it to be, based on stereotypes but you don't feel like you measure up

It's not a fetish thing. More a very strong emotional attachment to the idea of being female and being loved and cared for.

Why don't you be an amazingly kind and loving man. Who wears feminine clothes.
Break the stereotypes. We will love you for it and the honesty.

Wow. So Alphas position is that women are passive and submissive, but Alpha can’t understand us seeing that as sexist and offensive because Alpha thinks it’s better to be those things because Alpha is those things. Wow. Just wow.

I think what Alpha is failing to see is that the feeling of not fitting in with regressive, sexist stereotypes is actually very common. Does Alpha think that all the women who hate the stereotypes associated with women should just identify as men? We break them by showing the world that women are not passive, not submissive, not irrational and we are under no obligation to be kind.

There are many men in the world, around half the adult population.
We do have to co-exist.
We don't have to concede that any of them are women.

Alpha I think your early life experiences have cemented ideas about what a man is and what a woman is and since that time you’ve selectively filtered to back those ideas up.

But it’s based on a misunderstanding. It’s confirmation bias. I bet every time you met a loud, aggressive arsehole man you’ve added him to the list of “people you are not like” and every time you’ve met a gentle, non competitive caring man you’ve just filtered him out.
likewise, you’ve probably liked kind, soft women and not really noticed all the aggressive, uncaring shitty women. Your experience of the opposite sex is probably fairly limited and you’ve assigned characteristics based on what you consider desirable.

But the majority of the women here who grew up in the 70s and 80s will have been told “you can’t do that because you’re a girl”. It was a very sexist time. This is one of the reasons feminism grew in the 70s- because girls said “well clearly girls DO do these things! I do them so Society must change to accept that.”
You seem to have absorbed the message “boys can’t do that because (sexism)” and believed it’s YOU that needs to change.
But you don’t understand women. You don’t see us as individuals with our own life experiences, different personalities and skills. We are a very varied bunch (as are men). You have probably had some lovely influential women in your life and you want to emulate that. Nothing wrong with that.
But (and I know you don’t want to discuss your private life so I don’t want you to- but maybe think about it) if you have/had children would you have been the one to stay home so your partner could continue to progress in theirs? (And men can do that!) Would you take on the caring for elderly relatives so your partner can unwind after work with friends? (Again, men can be and frequently are carers). Do you do the shitty boring stuff that many men opt out of because they have a wife to do it?

You prize women’s ability to be emotional, yet you have not noticed that the concept of “women are emotional, men are rational” has been used to keep women from powerful or important jobs - even being able to drive! for years. Emotional is one step away from hysterical. You see it as a positive but society only recently has started coming round to that idea. It’s held women back as we have been seen as too emotional to cope, silly women. And whilst I agree encouraging boys and men to be more emotionally intelligent is a good thing this is a really modern concept.

You’ve fundamentally misunderstood women and then tried to become the thing women have been constricted by!

Right but why not come up with a different word for whatever it is you believe you are identifying with and call yourself that instead?

Because by calling yourself a woman you are taking the word away from women who don't want to be included in your identity and who need a word to describe what they are, i.e. members of the female biological sex.

I do believe you that it is more than a fetish and it can run very deep.
I think the addition of third (actually fourth, disabled facilities are important and should be respected) unisex spaces are the way to go.
Bear in mind that you stereotypical view of femaleness can be harmful to women.
Bear in mind that how the discussion has developed in the last few years (I'm thinking about real life debate, for example in Scotland, not only online debate) and the way women concerns were silenced has left little goodwill.
I hope reasonable debate will bring solutions.

I guess I feel more strongly about other issues like racism, social mobility and climate change than about all this. I literally never talk about this issue with friends as in most people's lives there are far more pressing issues. Most people I've specifically spoken to agree on the sports thing and are unsure on the rest. I'll stay in my middle place and see how the debates pan out. It doesn't seem like Mumsnet reflects society as I've noticed it. Good luck to you all.

I really don't feel aligned with men (warriors, criminals, commanders, Donald Trump, etc).

What about men poets, gardeners, artists, cooks, teachers, nurses, writers, carers etc ? You can be any kind of man you want to be, wear whatever you like, have any hairstyle you like.

You can't be any kind of woman.

But what IS this middle place you speak of?

Just because you don't feel strongly about it doesn't mean you are in the middle, or even that there is a middle.

I do not believe most women are OK with male bodied people in women’s wards, rape crisis centres and prisons (as patients/clients/prisoners) or with men giving un-chaperoned personal care to disabled women.

And most women on here believe it’s absolutely fine for men to wear dresses, long hair, makeup, stilettos and for them to present as soft, submissive etc. if that’s what they prefer. In fact many of us would welcome it as breaking down sexist stereotypes.

I see the OP has not returned and this thread has been commandeered for other purposes.

We've discussed above the highly 'problematic' issue of this political movement coming from a belief that men are entitled to use women. Which in physical reality means their bodies, and their reactions: many men enjoy shocking, frightening, dominating, threatening, seeing women's disgust, fear, anxiety and anger - think of all the berks shouting at you 'you're beautiful when you're angry darling' when really their comments that got you to give them that look, all the 'show us your tits' were just a veiled version of 'I could rape you if I felt like it, you're a walking sex toy'. Flashing's the next level. Rape and murder's the next stop on the ladder for those who escalate all the way according to criminal profilers.

But anyway. Always interesting to note on line that some men enjoy provoking anger, disgust, 'scolding' (recreational scolding shall we say, to quote Sherlock) and sympathy/persuasion/reasoning. It's all lovely woman attention and running about around that so very important ego.

Those of us who feel our existence has perhaps a little more meaning than a birth right of penis-service might want to consider this and whether they feel like being used for happy experiences this rainy Saturday morning.

The whole 'believe my unbelievably sexist claptrap and feel sorry for me/gently explain to me' with lots of stuff about the gentle loveliness of women.... fgs look at the women on AIBU and the relationships board, non fantasy women are tough as bloody nails, they hold high expectations of each other that they never expect of men. They don't play silly games like this with each other.

Yes, just be a person. A male person who entirely rejects male stereotypes and wears pretty clothes.

I am sorry that this means some people, maybe men especially, will treat you badly (which, ironically, is probably the closest you’ll come to the female experience, being absolutely fucking terrified of large aggressive blokes) but your rejection of being “a man” does not make you a woman.

How do we deal with those people who want to hit you or shun you for your fashion and behaviour choices? I have no idea, but women are not your human shield.

This is meant kindly, because although much of what you’re saying is jaw-droppingly sexist, I do believe you can’t yet see it, society has done a number on you, and you need some real therapy to accept yourself as what you are.

I know I am not a man

And we know you are because if you were a woman, you wouldn't in a million years make people the other sex feel uncomfortable just to appease your own delusion.

Men tell us in a myriad of ways how they really know they are men.

@AlphaTransWoman

Thank you for sharing and being so honest here, it's a wonderful insight into your experience and journey.

Much of what you mention about women being kind, nurturing and friendly also applies to men. There are plenty of warm and loving men in the world, just as there are horrible women.

My status as someone who is gender critical means that I don't believe the facts of my biology should dictate how I interact with society, and the older I get the more I understand that people are able to tread their own path - particularly in the UK but also in the wider Western world.

The kind men I know are just as interested in creating a great world for everyone, just as women do, but perhaps they do it in a different way. There is as much positive masculinity as there is toxic masculinity.

I hope you are able to reconcile your want to be kind and caring with your understanding of hiw the sexes "should" act. The more men who act in a positive way can only be a good thing and it's the only way we'll change the negative aspects of "gender roles".