Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

JM: GCRN is home free. They exist. The OU is the only univ with a GCRN. It's hard to think how much more JP could have achieved.

[Letting OU off the hook. But will the J realise what that must mean for the academic situation facing anyone in the UK wanting to do anything with a GC profile]

JM: BC didn't mention the grievance to Shakeshift and IF. They were all doing their very best. Way grievance dealt with isn't harassment or discrim.

So basically women with GC beliefs have to be penniless in the gutter if it's to be constructive dismissal... at which point we'd not have the time or money to bring an ET case. Catch 22 anyone?

JM It is Extraordinary that JP got the new job 3 days after interview. Of course I am not saying that it was a sham interview, but JP must have know since we think June 2021.

[You use a last straw reason to resign]

JM: Only reason JP resigns when she did is new job. Interviewed by Reading on 30 Nov. Found out c job on 1st Dec and resigned on 2nd. Extraordinary timescale - JP said process usually takes c 6 months - unless there was some certainty that that would be the outcome.

JM talks about JP being a campaigner - not in the sense of standing at Downing Street but as "campaigning to achieve what they wanted". Doesn't that mean anyone who makes any effort to go after an objective is a campaigner? Seems a very weak argument to me.

I can't believe JM rubbished JP's claim that she had sleepless nights. I don't think that endears the tribunal to what she is saying. Trying to say that JP wasn't actually upset about it.

People not wanting to leave their current paid employment, until they have other paid employment, isn't quite the gotcha she thinks it is.

What is the significance of what she's saying? Or rather, what does she think it is?

JM again mentions her best/only decent witness by name and makes her best/only decent point that Sam Jacobson was just doing her job.

Pah! When I used to teach, we got offered the job ON THE DAY! Admittedly it wasn't academia, but even so, it's not that unusual where good candidates are in high demand and you want to secure their services quickly.

Who was Sam Jacobsen again? I got lost with all the witnesses

Saying JP only left the OU as she had another job, not because she was upset about treatment at the OU.

JM: J asked when JP realised her legal rights. Was June 2021.

JM: people were aware of Miller/Forstater cases etc earlier. GCRN group were v aware of legal issues much earlier than June.

[I think she is saying that they knew of the direction of travel.]

JM: So claims are out of time. JP knew c her legal standing much earlier than June 21.

Doesn't that sound totally hollow? 20 bloody witnesses? Only referring to one of them looks woefully marked.

Got it.

sounds bloody ridiculous where I'm sitting. 300 fucking people signed a letter to get her network shutdown!!

Important question - is GC transphobic just by existing.

Yes I think that's a mistake. It highlights that the others were discriminating/harassing.

JM The span of GC beliefs is broad.

No it really isn't.

JM: BC conceded that it's not necessarily against law that someone with GC is a transphobe. Cos span of GC beliefs is very broad - he didn't add that bit, I'm adding that bit. Can span from someone who thinks sex immutable and so t people have no right to exist, to others with more nuanced position.

JM: May be Julian Vigo in podcast who says something, but JP doesn't push back on it.

Arguing that she wasn't upset is a bit strange considering she was reduced to tears (downplayed as 'sniffling') in a meeting, and one of OU's witnesses (I think DDrake?) put in an email that JP had sounded upset when they'd spoken at another time, and confirmed to Ben in examination that JP was 'putting on a brave face'.

From TT

JM: I think BC agreed - not necessarily against the law to say someone with GC beliefs is a transphobe, bcs GC beliefs are very broad - can span everyone that thinks eg sex is immutable so trans ppl have no right even to exist, to, much more nuanced version.

Who has ever said that tans have no right to exist?

break until 2

Believing in sex = believing some individuals have no right to exist?
I always struggle with the leap in logic here.

It is usually followed by accusations that believing sex matters = being a Nazi or part of a rising 'Christian Right' (because they believe/d this too.)

Thinking sex is immutable does not mean you think trans people don’t have the right to exist. Honestly 🙄. But of course she knows that, it’s all prejudice to sway the judge.

Break until 2 pm

She was the case manager who did the admin for grievance. She came across well.