Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

TT commentary

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1715303189790998821.html

Actually she was sniffling into a tissue that I gave her. [I was really struck by that little insight into the great compassion shown.]

So now it's wrong of Jo Phoenix not to put forward a transgender ideology argument in her own podcast, against the presenter???

It's not enough that Jo didn't say anything wrong, she didn't argue with someone else, who they consider did say something wrong!

This fucking ideology. Seriously!!!

Can span from someone who thinks sex immutable and so t people have no right to exist, to others with more nuanced position.

Did she actually say this? With that connotation? that thinking sex is immutable (it is!) somehow means that trans people have no right to exist... That's a big overreach. Unless I'm interpreting that wrong.

Acknowledging biological sex doesn't mean that trans people don't exist, just that I don't have to agree with their self image. I hate this forced teaming of 'you think X, so you must mean Y'...

Jo’s testimony included the fact she’d been excluded from involvement in recruiting staff. The OU said it was because she was on sick leave. Jo said recruitment takes at least six months so predated her leave - she meant things like writing the advertisement, finding the funding, shortlisting, etc.

JM is trying to twist that to say Jo must have either known about the Reading job six month prior or it was a sham recruitment process and she had a job created for her by Reading - which is quite an accusation so she has to say she isn’t saying it was a sham interview while implying it was

I have every confidence in Ben.

Just catching up, thanks for the posts.

Glad ginger and cheddar were such a hit @Emotionalsupportviper I'm going to try apple pie and Wensleydale asap.

I know believe people can't change, but if other people want to believe they can, they're welcome to. Just stay out of the ladies!

Oh yes, the 'why didn't she leave' trope

I don't know whether she is misrepresenting the view or she just doesn't understand it. When I say I don't believe in gender identity ideology it simply means that I don't believe that people have an innate "gender" as distinct from their sex, and I'm not willing to pretend I do. I also believe that considering sex can be important for many reasons. I believe that males (and females) who identify as "trans" exist though, or we wouldn't be here. Do I think they have the right to have everyone validate their beliefs? No.

Acknowledging biological sex doesn't mean that trans people don't exist, just that I don't have to agree with their self image. I hate this forced teaming of 'you think X, so you must mean Y'

That is what JM said. 😡 I don't know where she got that definition. (well I have some idea)

But that's just wild speculation, with no basis in evidence. Just in order to paint her as less than straightforward.

God that barrister sounds bloody awful

I am certain that I got that bit word for word correct (though missed out the 'is' in 'sex is immutable' cos not needed). Because it was so striking. The only thing I'm not sure about is the more nuanced position bit - whether it was 'others' or 'position/s' but it's correct from 'Can span...right to exist'.

It is quite the challenge to type with one's jaw on the floor.

Cos span of GC beliefs is very broad - he didn't add that bit, I'm adding that bit. Can span from someone who thinks sex immutable and so t people have no right to exist,

But saying that 'someone has no right to exist' wouldn't be 'WORIADS' and so wouldn't be protected?

Jo didn't say anything of the sort. Her ''transphobia'' was saying 'male-bodied', saying males shouldn't be in women's prisons, (as does the law now), signing an open letter that called for a respectful debate (I think?) and something that someone who isn't Jo Phoenix said on a podcast.

Comparing what is considered lawful expression in Maya and Allison's cases, I can't image the judge and panel deciding that Jo crossed a line, but who knows.

We've all heard TRAs say gender critical people don't think trans people exist.

But, I imagine, if it's the first time you've ever heard it, it would sound as ridiculous as it actually is.

If that's the level of argument, I'm only surprised she didn't bring in genocide.

In my last academic I got a phone call day after interview. Accepted verbally there and then after brief discussion about salary. Email confirmation later that day, signed contract a few days later. All sorted within 5 days of interview.

Only if you believe the, "I'm as GC as any other feminist/woman but…," or "Surely there's a middle ground and I'm here as a self-appointed arbiter with my 5mins read-up of the issue, both-sidism" people.

If there were as many genocides and suicides as they claim, there would be no trans people left and there would be no need for this Tribunal.

Ah yes thanks @CriticalCondition Sam Jacobsen did come across well but jn terms of the OU case she's not academic staff and she was the most junior in terms of position so not great if they are relying on her

Only if you believe the, "I'm as GC as any other feminist/woman but…," or "Surely there's a middle ground and I'm here as a self-appointed arbiter with my 5mins read-up of the issue, both-sidism" people.

There's a current thread about this.

Yes, they seem to pop up every week or so, asking in faux naiveté why we can't just be a bit nicer....

Who ever said trans people had no right to exist?

Oddly - I've only ever heard this phrase from TRAs.

<notes this onto "Cheesy Delights> list.

I have always wondered, where are the parents in this context?

There would be grieving parents making waves by now, as there are with parents of children who have been brought to extremis by eg online bullying. Given the number of young people affected by the movement who appear to be from middle class and comparatively privileged backgrounds, I can't believe that all these bereaved parents wouldn't be very noisy by now.

Also this . . . .

This is definitely going to be worth exploring - thank you!