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Original poster

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

1000 replies

ickky · 12/10/2023 16:30

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
CriticalCondition · 13/10/2023 12:19

IcakethereforeIam · 13/10/2023 12:18

What was the retweet?

Thanks everyone for the posts btw.

Retweet calling GCRN transphobic.

GCITC · 13/10/2023 12:19

IcakethereforeIam · 13/10/2023 12:18

What was the retweet?

Thanks everyone for the posts btw.

Calling GCRN transphobic and terfs.

Mmmnotsure · 13/10/2023 12:20

It was a retweet of Ruth Pearsons (a t academic) calling the GCRN a transphobic network

PerkingFaintly · 13/10/2023 12:20

I'm just bringing in more Brew and🍿

Sorry, I know this is people's real lives, and very, very serious for Jo, but I'm enjoying this an unreasonable amount.

This witness is the gift that keeps giving.

Original poster
ickky · 13/10/2023 12:20

Break until 12.35pm

OP posts:
Chrysanthemum5 · 13/10/2023 12:20

@SidewaysOtter the tribunal only allowed a very limited number of online codes for observers. I think they may all have been used sorry. Worth a call though to see if they will let you in

DewinDwl · 13/10/2023 12:23

How can people go to court and do what amounts to lying? I am glad BC is openly saying the witness is unreliable.

I wish the judge was stricter with the obviously deliberate evasiveness and obfuscation but I feel for her a bit - she was all naive on day one and now she's having a crash course abouy the ways of the TRA. I wonder if she'll turn up with a KJK mug next week...

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/10/2023 12:25

I'm trying to process everything that's just been said, and i'm just staring into space.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 13/10/2023 12:26

I had meetings in the middle of that, but I think it was just as well because from what I did hear I don't think my blood pressure could have taken it. LD is as slippery as fuck in terms of not being able to answer the question. It must be bloody exhausting to be interpreting plain words through the GI babelfish all the time. BC was starting to sound annoyed towards the end cutting across another "I feel" with short "not the question". Perhaps that's why the Judge called a break - she saw it was BC's turn for the juice and biccies?

RealityFan · 13/10/2023 12:26

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 12/10/2023 20:29

The very act of observing someone's biology is a transphobic act to LD

I've been thinking more about this over tea, and it captures the essence of the problem so well. For those of us on the GC side, observing whether someone's body is male or female is a fundamental part of recognising the difference between sex and gender. We recognise that everyone has a sex and that in some circumstances it is important, so simply making that observation is a neutral act, a matter of biology like the colour of your eyes or your height.

So, my manager might observe my age because we discuss my plans for retirement. My hairdresser might observe my greying and thinning hair as we discuss what to do with my style. My yoga teacher may observe my flexibility has got worse recently when I struggle with some poses. I don't feel any of those objective, observable things to be a judgement on me or damage my sense of self, even though inside I may still feel like a 26 year old with bum-length sleek shiny hair who can do the splits. I can look in the mirror and recognise the biological reality even as I sigh about the down sides of ageing.

If a transwoman or transman is so fragile that a simple observation of biological reality in a circumstance that matters, like deciding what hospital ward they should be admitted to, does damage their sense of self then surely we are back to this being, at best, some form of mental health issue like dysphoria? Especially, as in LD's case, they are getting offended on behalf of someone who isn't even in the conversation, like the hypothetical vulnerable transwoman prisoner LD was discussing in LD's evidence. The first questions BC asked LD today were exploring LD's position on sex v gender. While LD may say that they recognise the GC position is a valid one, albeit one they disagree with, LD would not accept that it would be reasonable in any circumstances to make the observation about someone's sex. It's simply not credible to say on one hand that holding GC views on sex and gender is a valid position to hold, but then refuse to allow someone to make observations on sex without judging them as transphobic.

Sorry, about the length, just trying to make sense of it in my head.

Edited

I wish I could write as well as this. So many essences of why this is all so wrong, and this post bottles things to a tee.

Imagine if BBC News 24 broadcast this embarrassing shambles, the spell would be broken, just like that.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 13/10/2023 12:27

You can tell the clerk today isn't the same one we've had earlier this week.

pronounsbundlebundle · 13/10/2023 12:28

It does show the extreme imbalance in the sides.

GC side: common sense, courtesy (generally speaking), plain English, ability to tolerate different views.
GI side: bullying, word salad, complete inability to take responsibility for own actions or tolerate others' views if different to own.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/10/2023 12:30

I used to think that, @RealityFan .

I used to think as soon as people understand 'x', they'll get it. Then i reasoned it to be 'y', but that new thing still didn't peak them.
And then we had Clive Lewis, a fucking MP, cheering on (not even simply defending, but actively celebrating) that AGP abusing the baby.
I'm not sure if there's a 'z' thing now...

Mmmnotsure · 13/10/2023 12:30

People might want to check that they are WFTCHTJ if they have other windows open. I got ninja-disconnected.

OP posts:
RealityFan · 13/10/2023 12:31

Froodwithatowel · 12/10/2023 22:17

It links up I suppose with the huge readiness to outsource thinking. The demand is 'you must unconditionally claim to perceive only what this (more powerful) person instructs you to claim to perceive. And make it a good performance.' And if you have to say 'but you are male and this matters because x' you are transphobic for engaging your own reality instead of enablingly performing that of the more powerful and important person.

In this context you are nothing more than a service unit whose value is in your service and sycophantism to the more powerful person.

It's co dependence gone mad. Mental health issues on either side. One side believing they have a right to require others to abandon themselves and perform what they're told, and the other side believing that good people do that without questioning or having boundaries when meeting their needs through the feelings of caring for the 'stars' of the show. While being lucky enough to be able to have no boundaries presented by challenging life experiences that get in the way.

Edited

It's religious observance, alright. But unlike Christianity where you don't expect the world to uphold you, or make an exception for you, GI absolutely obligates mass acceptance and approval, and your salvation is precisely predicated on as many people as possible falling in to raise you up.

It's both narcissism and self harm rolled into one, with your interior world broadcast at top volume upon exterior reality.

CriticalCondition · 13/10/2023 12:32

Got disconnected too. Justin's name is up but don't think he's doing the clerking today.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 13/10/2023 12:32

@Ameanstreakamilewide I think it goes back to the simple thing of not being able to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 13/10/2023 12:33

You're right, @MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving .

SidewaysOtter · 13/10/2023 12:35

It seems there won’t be any more links given out, according to the rather shirty woman on the phone who didn’t seem to accept that other ETs have managed much wider access.

If anyone would like to add a complaint about this, it can be sent to the address in Ickky’s OP.

Open access justice, my eye 😡

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/10/2023 12:36

It was a retweet of Ruth Pearsons (a t academic) calling the GCRN a transphobic network

Ruth Pearce. I think Pearce was plugging Pearce's own research into the "TERF Wars".

Chrysanthemum5 · 13/10/2023 12:37

Sorry @SidewaysOtter it really is poor when you consider similar tribunals have managed much larger online numbers

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/10/2023 12:37

Do the witnesses affirm or take the oath to tell the truth?

RethinkingLife · 13/10/2023 12:38

ickky · 13/10/2023 12:18

LD I am not a name caller - said 2 minutes after reading out her tweet calling Jo a Terf!

It is responses like this that make me think of Adam Sharp's latest: The Wheel Is Spinning But the Hamster Is Dead.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wheel-Spinning-but-Hamster-Dead/dp/1398715921/r

Mmmnotsure · 13/10/2023 12:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/10/2023 12:36

It was a retweet of Ruth Pearsons (a t academic) calling the GCRN a transphobic network

Ruth Pearce. I think Pearce was plugging Pearce's own research into the "TERF Wars".

Thanks. I obvs didn't hear that right.

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