Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Whilst harrowing for the claimants in these cases (and I will be eternally grateful to them for bringing them and will dig for every one), I am so relieved that it is being shown what I've always thought i.e Stonewall Law infiltrated our institutions through complacency and passivity within those places.

I'm not sure relieved is the right word (because the situation is disgraceful) - I mean that I am comforted that I have been on the right track all these years and have the additional strength to challenge where appropriate (though limited in my world). These institutions are incapable of even considering women & children so the mission continues.

Thank you all - claimants, commentators & Ben Cooper KC (oh to be so skilled in my job).

Indeed, thank you to the KC and His Sunshine Band.

IF is probaby having a long lie down in a darkened room.

Thanks everyone for your input and company.

@ickky You are doing a great job, I hope you are holding up ok.

Checking in, so wish I could directly witness BC's brilliance

I'm trying to piece together the day's events from comments here as I'm not following the tribunal. It sounds like a shitshow from the OU. For those of you feeling sorry for them as they were having to soothe the trans tantrums, remember they chose to fight this. They could have settled at anytime before they got to the door of the court. It is the job of their Counsel and solicitor to advise them as to the weaknesses in their case and risks of going to trial. If they get trounced it might start to turn things around for other claimants and change the culture. Maya, Jo and Ali have been real heroes.

Is it possible for the OU to argue that they didn't discriminate, but some of their staff did, by not following the OU guidelines?

They can argue that, but IF's evidence that 'the Secretary was receiving legal advice all the time' is a bit of a faux pas in that case.

[At the OU the Secretary is Dave Hall, a sort-of CEO. The Chancellor is Tim Blackman. Very big cheeses. Not on the list.]

I'm not sure where to look, but who are the law firms on each side?

Not excusing it in any way, but I always think it is plain daft to take an accomplished lecturer and researcher and "promote them to the extent they are having to deal with a whole load of stuff they really have no experience of".

Some might fly, others will begrudge it.

Possibly not an issue so much when departments were small but now that 40%+ go to Uni that is a lot more batshittery to firefight.

Even in my tiny charity we are very clear about when we need to hold our nose and settle versus risking a tribunal.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine the only way the OU could argue that is if they took disciplinary action against a member of staff for not applying the policies.

It’s clear the Executive Team were involved as they helped draft the VC’s statements. There is no way the OU can argue they were not aware of what manager’s and senior staff were doing.

I don’t mean to be patronising but in my experience employees and even junior managers can be naive about how senior management works and HR’s involvement or non-involvement. There is a lot more conversations, joint drafts, agreeing a course of action etc. in situations like this. I think MW said they were meeting daily, this is typical in a crisis situation, there are conversations before each step is taken, so whilst one person may appear to be the decision maker they were not acting alone.

This has been bothering me all afternoon. I remember it was a woman in the US office but her name escapes me.

What I would love to see would be Maya jump up and shout HOUSE - then flash her bingo card !

@CriticalCondition @RethinkingLife I don’t want to incorrectly malign anyone but was it Amanda Glassman?

She was there, wasn't she? It was a different woman I think.

Ellen McKenzie?

I think it was Ellen Mackenzie? She's mentioned a lot in the judgment, but isn't listed as a witness. Judgment notes that she was 'organising opposition to the renewal of Ms Forstater's Visiting Fellowship'

Well done, Ereshkigalangcleg and yourhairiswinterfire - it was, indeed Ellen Mackenzie. I remember thinking the name wasn't entirely unlike Macavity and even vaguely recalled "Ellen" but couldn't put it together.

I'd have Kristofer Hivju (Tormund in Game of Thrones) playing Ben in the movie.

I think he has the right air of disarming friendliness over a core of steel. But he'd need a fairly severe groom, and I'm not sure it would be right to trim and brush him.

Only a teeny tiny beard trim required

In 2020 the OU had to withdraw a course on employment law and trans inclusion after complaint by Object. The course had been written by Gendered Intelligence and Meg Barker (department of psychology, not law), and taught Stonewall law, not actual British employment law.

When Object complained pointing out all the factually incorrect parts of the course, it was taken down for review, and is still down.

So they were captured enough to offer a factually an incorrect course, which really ought to have embarrassed them and made them wonder about reputational damage. However, instead of learning from such an embarrassing mistake, they carried right on acting according to Stonewall law inside their their own institution, in spite of someone, somewhere, inside having realised just how wrong they were on what the law actually says.

https://objectnow.org/gendered-intelligences-online-ou-course-taken-down-for-review/

Wow @Fallingirl I didn't know about that. Well done to Object.

I didn't know that, Fallingirl, thank you.

Judging by this Linked In post by @GraduateFog the OU could do with consulting people like Tanya if they want sound, even-handed advice on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.

MN thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917862-look-at-this-brilliant-post-on-a-popular-professional-network?

Meg John Barker of course was notorious for writing guidance for sex and relationships for BACP, she's also the partner of male TRA Edward Lord of the City of London Corporation, who incidentally had to recuse himself from the Kristie Higgs v Farmors School tribunal appeal hearing.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

Such gems as:

"Being a woman in a British cultural context often means adhering to social norms of femininity, such as being nurturing, caring, social, emotional, vulnerable, and concerned with appearance."

"The sex of a baby is medically assigned on the basis of the length of the clitoris/penis."

And the cherry on the cake:

"In some northern working-class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression."

In some northern working-class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression
Hmm. Any more of that shit and I'll see meg self behind the bike sheds.

"In some northern working-class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression."

wuh?