Trans bathroom access - the equality act is 13 years old so why is there such a challenge on it now?

[Snufflebabe05]

Really trying to understand views I’m hearing online, at work, in media.

Anyone who is transitioning, has transitioned, proposing to transition is legally allowed to use the bathroom which is aligned to the gender they see themselves as. No evidence needed, no proof of medical info etc. This has been the case since the Equality Act launched in 2010. Any business who doesn’t allow this is breaking the law. Unless there is a proportionate and reasonable reason (gym changing rooms can be an example). The majority of locations wouldn’t fall into the exemption though.

Toilets are aligned with a relevant Health and Safety legislation, where bathrooms are provided for men and women, so by gender.

So why is the uproar now? Why is it now that we are hearing about “women-only spaces”? Is is the media? What has changed?

Genuine, honest question as keen to understand.

The Equality Act specifies that men can use women’s toilets?

Can you quote the relevant section please?

You cannot be discriminated against eg lose your job for being eg transsexual. Men who think they are women have no right to women's single sex spaces.

You've misunderstood the ea.

Erm, toilets and changing rooms were single sex since the year dot. This is what the norm has been. If you're female with XX chromosomes you use the women's loo. If you're male with XY chromosomes you use the mens. Everyone understood this.

In the last handful of years, some men have decided they want to use the safe spaces for females and have started to muscle in. Lots of women are worried about this, for very obvious reasons. What don't you get?

Toilets are segregated by sex, not gender
Men can keep out of women's toilets

No you’ve got confused, according to the law women and girls are entitled to single sex spaces (including loos) for privacy and dignity.

OP you are muddling sex and gender. Single-sex spaces don't care what gender you feel you are or have.
Sex and gender are separate things, as trans people know too well.

If you think that there is something female about a woman please feel free to say so but you run the risk of being called a terf or something.

As others have said- due to sex their are supposed to be single sex spaces available, which has nothing to do with gender.

The proportionate, reasonable exemption relates to 'no discrimination by a protected characteristic'. E.g. you shouldn't discriminate a service to gay or straight people in general, but there might be e.g. separate support groups for gay people, etc - this is reasonable and proportionate.
Same with not discriminating by sex.

Gender is not a protected characteristic, as I'm sure you know if you have glanced at the Equality Act.

I also assume you think 'transitioning' means something to do with changing one's body, appearance, etc. That does not align with proposed self-id.

Not toilets again! Try showers, changing rooms, dormitories, sports and see how that works.

gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics, sex is also a protected characteristic of the Equality act of 2010. In 2010 the existence or sex was a less contested / controversial element that everyone (basically) agreed was real and well understood.

The more some people have come to believe that some subset of
[sex isn't real, and or it isn't binary, and or it is possible to change sex, and or sex is never as important as the gender identity a person asserts they have ] the more people have started to assert that single sex provision is actually supposed to be single gender provision which is not the original intention of the act at all.

This leads to people (women) saying no.

bathrooms are provided for men and women, so by gender.

That's where you are going wrong. It's by sex, not gender.

As to how we got here, well this is a few years old but I'll take any opportunity to post it... have a squizz

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Sex and gender are different things.

There are no facilities, services or opportunities where there is any rational reason to split by gender. Something that is split by gender is not achieving any rational benefit for anyone, so they might as well be "open to all".

The equality act specifically says that while (obviously and correctly) there should be no discrimination against trans people, it is not discrimination and is perfectly legitimate for them to still be considered as their birth sex when something is sex-segregated.

People have lied about this regularly. There is no enshrined right for any trans person to just go into the bathroom they choose. If there was, then all bathrooms should be mixed sex because anyone can declare any gender on any day and it's impossible to prove or disprove. But that's a terrible idea because it is well established that women are at massively increased risk of sex-based violence and voyerism in a mixed sex environment.

The safest option for women is single sex facilities.

The second-safest (though much worse than the first) is totally mixed facilities with no segregation.

The least safe is the option where there's a facility for women plus any man who wants to go in (since there's no way to tell the difference between a transwoman with no ill intent and a man who chooses to cosplay into a situation where women are vulnerable) - significantly more dangerous because the decent, well behaved men aren't there to hear any call for help.

There is absolutely nothing in the equality act that says we have to put up with option 3 because it might hurt someone's feelings otherwise.

It's a bit under-the-radar but this is "they only want to pee" isn't it?

'proposing to transition'

That's a clear and easily defined category - 18 stone 6'6" bearded trouser and flannel shirt wearing Dave enters a women's toilet /changing room/ hospital ward and when someone challenges him about his presence there he says he is 'proposing to transition'. 17.5 stone, 6'5" bearded trouser and flannel shirt wearing Bob also enters a women's toilet /changing room/ hospital ward and when someone challenges him about his presence there he says he is 'proposing to transition'.
One of them is telling the truth and does plan to transition one day, the other has never even consider transitioning. How does my 78 years mother or my 14 years daughter tell which one is lying?
No men should be in women's spaces ever regardless of how much 'transitioning' they have done.

Ah bless, OP has misunderstood the EA. Lots of new posters seem to it appears....

And "bathrooms" always on these threads. Do you mean toilets?

Absolutely!

if toilets weren’t single sex but were instead divvied up by feminine and masculine genders, why would the Gents include special toilets that only penis-people can use?

And why would the Ladies have a tampon vending machine, surely a lipstick vending machine would be more appropriate if the facility were for feminine people of either sex?

It’s bonkers that rational people have fallen for the ‘it’s single gender, not single sex’ lie, when it literally says ‘single sex’ in the phrase ‘single sex spaces’.

A man claiming to have a special lady 'gender' cannot be kicked out of the MEN'S toilets or changing rooms or sports.

Exemptions where put in place to protect actual women and girls on the basis of their sex where necessary.

Also women where never asked if it was ok for our spaces to become mixed sex because some men didn't like the fact they were men.

Who told you that? Stonewall? 😬

Yes, 'man' and 'woman' refer to sex.

It’s bonkers that rational people have fallen for the ‘it’s single gender, not single sex’ lie, when it literally says ‘single sex’ in the phrase ‘single sex spaces’

Also funny how when TRA's talk about these situations, it only ever comes down to the entirely binary 'man' and 'woman' gender stereotypes.

Were gonna need lots more loos if it's 'single gender' facilities. Maybe ones with litter trays for the cat genders?

I assume this has come up because it is being presented as part of the Tory campaign against "woke" / that the Tories are stoking a culture war.

This is the problem when people only view issues through the prism of party politics. Just because Labour wont stand up for women's right and dignity doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to campaign for this and accept that it seems it is only the Tories who are prepared to speak up for women, or as Kemi Badenoch said, arguing for what was always acceted as normal practice.

Most of this arguement has been covered by this earlier thread, which also explains why it is now an "issue". Or rather why some are trying to undermine the issue by making in party political.

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I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

Link to article by KB and discussion here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4871351-gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy-kemi-badenoch