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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans bathroom access - the equality act is 13 years old so why is there such a challenge on it now?

146 replies

Snufflebabe05 · 06/10/2023 23:11

Really trying to understand views I’m hearing online, at work, in media.

Anyone who is transitioning, has transitioned, proposing to transition is legally allowed to use the bathroom which is aligned to the gender they see themselves as. No evidence needed, no proof of medical info etc. This has been the case since the Equality Act launched in 2010. Any business who doesn’t allow this is breaking the law. Unless there is a proportionate and reasonable reason (gym changing rooms can be an example). The majority of locations wouldn’t fall into the exemption though.

Toilets are aligned with a relevant Health and Safety legislation, where bathrooms are provided for men and women, so by gender.

So why is the uproar now? Why is it now that we are hearing about “women-only spaces”? Is is the media? What has changed?

Genuine, honest question as keen to understand.

OP posts:
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SpiderMaam · 07/10/2023 08:52

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 07:35

Yes, I’ve been reading about HSE - however, it consistently refers to providing facilities for “men and women”.

It does go on to saying about female sanitary provision.

So, if I ask my work - are toilets by sex or by gender, what is the correct (in line with the law) response?

For the purposes of The Equality Act a Woman is a Female of any age.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2020-03-05/HL2276/#:~:text=In%20the%20Equality%20Act%202010,a%20female%20of%20any%20age%22.

The toilet legislation (1991) long predates the silly muddling of Sex and Gender in the 2004 GRA.
The Equality Act 2010 made cleared up that muddle by providing a legal way to exclude Men with a GRC and and altered birth certificate from female only provision.

Stonewall have been pretending otherwise, which is why they have been dropped by so many of their former Champions/Equality Index Members.

Equality Act is just really hard for individuals to get recourse from because it seems like a decent set of tribunal lawyers costs over a hundred grand (thank goddess for crowdfunding).

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/10/2023 08:53

Of course there will need to be some sort of check at toilet doors its not like we can tell a transwoman at 20 paces.

Actually could suggest that to sunak, it could be good for job creation

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 08:54

smilesup · 07/10/2023 08:46

The reason why now is because the Tories realise it's a vote winner. They obviously don't actually give a fuck about women.

You do realise the many of the very first women to take the position that single sex spaces need to remain single sex were left wing feminists?

And have been working hard to pull together groups to meet with government committees and make submissions for many years?

I hope it is that you didn’t know this that prompted you to just erase the decade or so of work by these women.

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 08:56

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 08:49

Ahhh yes… women cannot think about their own needs and experiences and make a decision issues.

Hey women of the world …. Which one of you stated your opinion that we all copied? Come on, hands up!

Sorry I cross posted with Arabella.

SpiderMaam · 07/10/2023 08:57

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:49

@ArabellaScott No, she's busy inspecting people's pelvis width to decide if they can come in the bathroom or not

Why would Auntie G let a stranger use her bathroom?

popebishop · 07/10/2023 08:57

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Of course a trans man is biologically a woman but that doesn't stop his gender from being male

You've got it mixed up again! Male is a sex, not a gender. Do you think there is something male about a man? Confused

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/10/2023 08:57

smilesup · 07/10/2023 08:46

The reason why now is because the Tories realise it's a vote winner. They obviously don't actually give a fuck about women.

Question that should be asked is why is it a vote winner? Could it be because a majority of people believe in reality

ArabellaScott · 07/10/2023 08:57

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:51

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Of course a trans man is biologically a woman but that doesn't stop his gender from being male

Fantastic. Please give the Scottish Courts a call. Ask for Lady Haldane, and set her right.

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 08:59

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:49

@ArabellaScott No, she's busy inspecting people's pelvis width to decide if they can come in the bathroom or not

So you are talking about some omnipresent being ? Like a goddess of toilets?

Well that is novel! And great that OP won’t need much further advice then!

JacquelinePot · 07/10/2023 09:00

Assuming that you are posting in good faith, op...

Sex = female and male
Human adults = women and men

'Woman' and 'man' aren't 'gender' words, they're 'sex' words. They're the words we use to refer to human adults of each sex.

Woman and man are no more 'gender' words than are mare or stallion. Horses only have a sex, not a gender. Same goes for chickens and roosters, bitches and dogs, ewes and rams and on and on and on...

...as for why now? We've been shouting about all this stuff for YEARS

https://animalcorner.org/animal-names/

List of Animal Names for Male, Female and Groups

A complete list of animal names and the names used for male, female, young and groups.

https://animalcorner.org/animal-names/

popebishop · 07/10/2023 09:01

Waitwhat23 · 07/10/2023 08:49

Ah, the bat signal has gone out

"Hey! If you like derailing women's conversations about building regs, are just about literate, and really muddled about what is sex and what is gender, get on over here! " < that one? They use that one a lot, by the looks of things...

MargotBamborough · 07/10/2023 09:06

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:51

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Of course a trans man is biologically a woman but that doesn't stop his gender from being male

Can you talk us through how someone's gender can be male please?

You can start by defining both "gender" and "male".

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 07/10/2023 09:06

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:51

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Of course a trans man is biologically a woman but that doesn't stop his gender from being male

What is a male gender?

speenmum · 07/10/2023 09:07

JacquelinePot · 07/10/2023 09:00

Assuming that you are posting in good faith, op...

Sex = female and male
Human adults = women and men

'Woman' and 'man' aren't 'gender' words, they're 'sex' words. They're the words we use to refer to human adults of each sex.

Woman and man are no more 'gender' words than are mare or stallion. Horses only have a sex, not a gender. Same goes for chickens and roosters, bitches and dogs, ewes and rams and on and on and on...

...as for why now? We've been shouting about all this stuff for YEARS

https://animalcorner.org/animal-names/

Humans are obviously more complex. Do you see horses having a left and right wing political system and a complex economy? Male and female are obviously sex-related words but man and woman can refer to both gender and sex. Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

SpiderMaam · 07/10/2023 09:08

A gelding is a male, just as a stallion is a male.

MargotBamborough · 07/10/2023 09:09

speenmum · 07/10/2023 09:07

Humans are obviously more complex. Do you see horses having a left and right wing political system and a complex economy? Male and female are obviously sex-related words but man and woman can refer to both gender and sex. Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

No, my assumption about their sex is very much based on their anatomy.

I don't assume anything about their gender because gender isn't real.

JacquelinePot · 07/10/2023 09:09

speenmum · 07/10/2023 09:07

Humans are obviously more complex. Do you see horses having a left and right wing political system and a complex economy? Male and female are obviously sex-related words but man and woman can refer to both gender and sex. Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

Really realistically, no it doesn't

Helleofabore · 07/10/2023 09:14

Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

Please don’t project your own shortcomings onto others. No, I seriously don’t assume from appearances.

Besides, didn’t you tell us we all wait for an omnipresent being to tell us what to think and wouldn’t she just be telling us the truth based on her omnipresent powers?

You really cannot have it both ways.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 07/10/2023 09:14

speenmum · 07/10/2023 08:38

Because one person online says that they are concerned because they think trans women are still men and then everyone else blindly repeats the same arguments! There are far bigger issues than this which people could focus on

Hmm…. Lots of women, and lots of men - most, actually - think male bodied people are male, regardless of their personality and preferences.

The transwomen thing is irrelevant really. No people with penises in single sex places.

Toilets, of course, are less important (in general) than open plan changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards and rape crisis centres. But toilets are very important where some women and girls cannot use mixed facilities for religious reasons, or because of history of SA or such like.

Do you think women should have to share single sex places with people with penises?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2023 09:18

Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy.

I don't subscribe to the existence of "gender" as anything but a social construct based on sex stereotypes. Only a person's sex is relevant.

Waitwhat23 · 07/10/2023 09:19

popebishop · 07/10/2023 09:01

"Hey! If you like derailing women's conversations about building regs, are just about literate, and really muddled about what is sex and what is gender, get on over here! " < that one? They use that one a lot, by the looks of things...

It's like there is an alert for thread titles which have any of the following - toilets pronouns, name badges, email signatures etc etc. They never insert themselves in the legal threads, or the tribunal tweets ones, or the threads of specific examples of women being harmed.

This thread is actually quite an interesting thread of the issues around the meaning of words being changed and how that impacts on the implementation of legislation. As always, it's disrupted with 'but you can't call them men!!!'/'pelvic inspectors'/'moral panic' instead of a discussion about how to balance the existing single sex exemption rights as laid out in the EQA 2010 with the demands for gender neutral provisions.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2023 09:19

Mummyoflittledragon · 07/10/2023 02:24

My understanding from what I have read is that the equality act forbids anyone of one sex class from being treated differently from another of their sex class. Ergo a transwoman being biologically male cannot be treated less favourably than any other biological malE.

This.

This in theory it should be discriminatory to force transwomen to not use male facilities. Anyone who harassed or otherwise distressed a transwoman in male facilities should be the one being legally dealt with as transwomen should have equal unfettered access.

Yet this has somehow been twisted into saying that transwomen should have access to female facilities because the male ones are unsafe and it harms transwomens' privacy and dignity.

Without addressing why female facilities were separate from male ones in the first place and ignoring the paradox that males in female facilities undermines female safety, privacy and dignity and the fact that you CAN discriminate against the opposite sex in employment when providing services and access to spaces which are single sex and access may result in undermining safety, privacy and dignity even if they are a GRC holder because this is a legitimate purpose and it risks disproportionate harm.

Harm is generally measured in law in terms of benefits versus costs based on seriousness and scale.

Therefore you would look at potential harms to women: physical safety, mental safety, dignity and privacy, level of risk and numbers effected v the same for transwomen. Keeping in mind here the legal right of transwomen to use male facilities equally free from harassment and fear (which actually doesn't exist for women who might use male facilities in the same way).

One single transwoman using female facilities has a potential effect on ALL women who use those facilities. Both directly and indirectly.

Starting with the indirect, transwomen using female facilities open up female facilities to not just transwomen but all men because women fear challenging them or feel socially unable to. Social convention not law is generally what keeps men out of female facilities. By breaking this convention you make it easier for all males to do so. Women don't unite to kick them out because of blurred boundaries and fear of judgement from other women. Transwomen can pass but equally they can be 6' 2" pot bellied hairy bikers. This physicality is also psychologically intimidating as well as a physical risk to women who can't match the stature and strength of males. (And one of the original reasons for female only facilities being established in the first place). This means when calculating risk, you can not just look at the risk transwomen create, you must also factor in the 'chancer' element.

In terms of privacy and dignity we have other protected characteristics we need to cater for and acknowledge. Notably religious sensibilities. In allowing all males into female facilities by breaking the social convention rules, we make many of these places off limits to women from these religious groups because this is at odds with their social conventions and are unacceptable. They therefore self exclude. This clash of rights needs to be addressed in law. Do women from religious groups have the same rights of access to single sex spaces as other women? Arguably if they are unable to access them due to the presence of men being facilitated the answer is no. (Remember here the transwomen have protected rights to male facilities).

Then there is the element of privacy and dignity. We see in the exemptions for rape crisis centres, transwomen CAN be legally excluded for a job even with a GRC if there is a legitimate aim (to stop the harm of mental distress to a more vulnerable person from a person in a position of authority over intimate and personal matters). We have established the physical differences between men and women and that we need to assess risk not based on the risk of transwomen but on the risk of the broken social convention which allows access by all men. The legitimate aim of single sex facilities is to protect the privacy, safety and dignity of each sex - so what is their point if you allow the social convention to be broken? How does this affect privacy, dignity and safety? Are women more or less vulnerable by breaking the convention? Is this an equal situation for men / transwomen? Remember legally transwomens' sex is male so whilst you consider their position separately to men you also need to consider the position including them with men. Is it sex discrimination to disadvantage women's safety, dignity and privacy and access to public facilities if you allow males to break social convention? Is there a risk of causing distress or worse? If a woman is flashed by a penis this is regarded as a sexual offence. So what's the situation when it's a transwoman in a female facility? We regard the act of flashing as distressing and causing harm in one scenario in our society but so why not the other? It's legitimate for any woman to feel threatened in this situation for this reason. It is not something you can just dismiss as prudishness or bigotry. The role of intent is important, however if you were unintentionally flashing your neighbours by undressing by your window, you could well get a visit by the local police for distressing your neighbour. And we actually can't eliminate that there is an intention to distress women and to get a sexual kick either. This remains important and can not be ignored.

In terms of privacy and dignity of transwomen, there is an argument to be had about how being in male facilities may affect them. But this doesn't override female dignity and privacy. In law, BOTH must be considered.

And when you consider impact, and the point about social convention allowing access of all males not just transwomen you hit an issue. It's. NOT proportional to allow access. It should not be being done and facilitated by work places.

Work places should be instead making 'reasonable adjustments' to accommodate the privacy and dignity of transwomen. That's the provision of gender neutral facilities IN ADDITION to but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF one sex over the other. Therefore you can't convert one set of women's toilets to gender neutral but not the men's because women lose. Equally if facilities are gender neutral they must cater for the needs of both sexes taking into account privacy and dignity. Therefore in theory all gender neutral spaces must be closed cubicle with no urinals (transwomen using the urinal whilst arguing about their privacy and dignity are taking the piss quite literally - if they are willing to do this in full view of any member of staff in one changing room but not the men's you have a worrying issue). So you shouldn't be just converting the males either - you should be removing urinals from gender neutral facilities whilst maintaining (at least) equal facilities for women (women need more toilet provision than men - this is recognised to the point that portaloo hire companies factor male:female ratios when calculating appropriate numbers for festival - this should be being done when building new workplaces but it's not.).

The above also applies to transmen but the impact is lesser (go through the steps above applying to transmen and you work out why - I'm not going to do it here) but still exists.

Saying you 'just want to pee' is a way of deliberately down playing all the above considerations and saying the right to privacy and dignity of others is not something I respect.

Think about that. Someone saying they don't respect the privacy and dignity of others whilst demanding their own. Does that strike you as consistent with the Equality Act right there in that one little statement?

The government really needs to tackle this head on.

We absolutely should not have situations where women can not request a female member of staff for intimate health care. They certainly should not be told they will not be treated. This is discrimination and the response is not proportionate. Employee rights don't trump rights under the Equality Act.

I actually hope we get a test case against leisure centres at some point because we desperately need one.

It's really not cool how the law has been misrepresented.

Somanycats · 07/10/2023 09:21

speenmum · 07/10/2023 09:07

Humans are obviously more complex. Do you see horses having a left and right wing political system and a complex economy? Male and female are obviously sex-related words but man and woman can refer to both gender and sex. Realistically, when you meet someone for the first time, your assumption of their gender comes from their appearance (how they choose to present) instead of their anatomy

So much bollocks. When we meet someone, we ascertain their sex. Quickly and from easy observation. No one considers anyone's gender, because and I cannot be clear enough about this...NO SUCH THING EXiSTS. We have our sex and our personality.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/10/2023 09:22

speenmum is making a good example of what I meant about changing language to try to confuse things. Notice the subtle change from trans woman to trans man, also using male as a description of gender rather than sex. Its done on purpose so they can claim common usage, its all Bellshill.

Single sex refers to biological sex

LorraineBainMcFly · 07/10/2023 09:25

Snufflebabe05 · 07/10/2023 07:42

Not trying to be demanding. I’m finding it really complex and want to be part of the conversation at work and thought I’d seek views on here on the parts of the discussion I am struggling to navigate.

So which 'side' are you arguing for?

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