Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

If I'd have been the OU I wouldn't have put IF on the stand.

Hey ickky 👋

Hello

Going back to the savage podcast and reading PB's witness statement, most of the points that they made a official complaint about were not said by Jo, it was the interviewer that made the contested points.

As far as I could make out, the only thing Jo said was the tactical error stonewall made in saying "no debate".

Did anyone else listen to the podcast?

Yes, thank goodness there appear to be some adults at the OU.

I'm a bit sick of the term 'collegiality' though - it seems to only ever go one way: women (especially GC women) are expected to give up everything of value for gender ideology but never get any mutual respect or consideration in return. I'm glad BC has made this point - the gender zealots say everything that comes out of the mouth of someone who believes biology is real is bigoted and 'harmful' and they render the commonly held meanings of words redundant. The same is NOT true of the GC side.

Whilst I have some sympathy for being caught up in this, men like this need to understand this is real, it is happening and if they don't want their institutions totally destroyed by adult toddlers (like PB) who only think their opinion matters, not fact or logic or evidence, then they need to speak up.

Thank you for updating us contemporaneously; my phone doesn't see to get on with Tribunal Tweets.

I have not seen the case being reported in the press this time. Are there any journalists sat in court, do you know?

I'm thankfully retired now as a Head of Department from this.
Nothing has changed. I lost count of the use of the phrase "clash of personalities" and failure to do anything .

The Judge did say there were press in the gallery, but not sure who or if they were referring to Tribunal Tweets reporter only.

Urgh

’clash of personalities’. The handy get out for leaders who don’t want to deal with shitty behaviour

Quoted the wrong post there!

@ickky Yes, I listened again to the podcast last night. I agree with you, it was the interviewer making those points as you say. Jo's comments were around SW and no debate.

Reading IF's statement I could have predicted exactly what would happen - set up a group to review, have lots of meetings, aim to never have to give an opinion and hope it goes away. That's why his comment about Jo's resilience annoys me - he wanted her to not make a fuss so they didn't have to do anything about it

I listened to about half last night, I couldn't see anything particularly contentious in it at all so far.

The imbalance between what gender zealots think is transphobic and worthy of complaint and the actual harms experienced by women academics who are bullied as a result of common sense statements is staggering. It's pretty much just 'burn the witch because we said so and we don't like her opinions'.

Bc - calling for a Jewish group to be shut down because you don't agree with zionism would be discriminatory wouldn't it?

IF - Very likely

Bc - calling for a Muslim study group to be shit down because you believe Islam is fundamentally opposed to democracy would be discriminatory wouldn't it?

If - Very likely.

It follows then that calling for a GC group to be shut down because you believe it harms trans people is also discriminatory.

'Collegiate' is just #BeKind in an academic gown.

'Collegiate' is just #BeKind in an academic gown.

So true.

It seems PB had a bee in their bonnet about JP and I am sure they must have have a hand either directly or indirectly in the composing of the open letter as they points were the same.

They also attributed an issue to one of the other members of the GC network, which had nothing to do with him.

They seem to be an easily confused individual.

'Collegiate' is just #BeKind in an academic gown.

I see it more as a, "You have to understand…" that you must always accede to the preferences of male colleagues. Those who do will have handmaid/acolyte status, women who behave otherwise will be classed as aggressive and bigoted. Those women will be excoriated, managed out, and subject to exorcism from the academy.

Yes, that's it exactly.

So the OU allowed an employee to be relentlessly bullied to the point of breakdown by other staff because she was in a room with someone who said something another colleague didn't like.

Salem witch trials anyone?

@ickky When I was listening to the podcast last night, I was quite glad that the Judge had said she wanted to listen to it on her own. For the reasons you say. It's quite clear who says what in it and PB doesn't come out of this well. Not a nice colleague at all. A fibber and a back stabber.

I went to bed in happier frame of mind

PB is not a good advertisement for the OU at all. Current witness is regaining some ground but you'd really want to be sure you / your child was not going to be taught by someone like PB with their ideological bias and inability to cope with real facts or get basic things (like who said what) right.

Same to same.

It's very strange, it's almost as if they picked up some soundbites but didn't actually listen to it themselves before complaining.

I must just be having an optimistic morning, but does anyone else feel it's all over bar the shouting, given what BC is getting IF to admit?