Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Had a look at PB's research last night. Honestly it looked like word salad to me.

Checked with DH who is a sociologist and he had no idea either but pointed out they publish a lot, and as most of it looks made up it's an original contribution to knowledge.

So the OU probably love them as they score loads of points.

@JoIsBraverThanIAm I think it was over before it began. There is plenty of hard evidence.

Especially when you listen to BC putting the Gay/Zionist/Jewish proposition. It is clearly over the line to discriminate and usually in any of those examples, I would imagine expulsion or the sack would be the outcome.

TT commentary from this morning.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711658032025715060.html

anyone else [not] back in after the break?

Still waiting here

here we go, good...

It's quite clear who says what in it and PB doesn't come out of this well
and
most of it looks made up it's an original contribution to knowledge.

Both of these make me a little concerned about the quality of peer review. And a pet peeve is the pollution of the knowledge base in a field by the implicit sanction/acceptance of nonsense the novel just because there are no solid evidential grounds on which to base a rejection.

Oh dear, how far the OU has fallen when all you need to do is make stuff up.

Isn't it true that some academics went around totally making up research and got it published as a sort of trojan horse to expose how useless and devoid of value certain journals (and their peer review processes) were?

@pronounsbundlebundle Yes, they just cite each, to make it appear that their own contribution may have some substance.

Isn't it true that some academics went around totally making up research and got it published as a sort of trojan horse to expose how useless and devoid of value certain journals (and their peer review processes) were?

Yes. Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay.

Honestly I read the definition of zemiology several times and I still had no idea.

And there only seemed a couple of others in the field.

After Jo's horrific ordeal last week, I feel that Ben Cooper is fighting her corner so well. I don't think the OU's tactic of presenting her as a mad difficult bloody woman is working thus far, thanks to his diligence.

However, it's still early days, it's not over untill it's over, in my book.

Even if Jo is successful at this Tribunal, there's the chance that the OU might appeal. They've hitched their horse to discrediting her, and if it goes wrong for them, the fallout will be immense. They might hope she won't raise the money a second time.

(We know better!)

Does anyone know of any comments coming from supporters of the OU in reaction to this tribunal? Have we got any tweeters from the 'other' side?

There used to be a series of old BT adverts by Maureen Lipman, where she talks to her rather dopey unacademic grandson: "it's an ology, it makes you a scientist already"😂

@Melissamelisante Not that I have seen, but then, I haven't looked.

And Peter Boghossian

Just wondering if Prof Fribbance is going to be blacklisted as he is agreeing with BC that all these statements are obviously not transphobic etc....

Ironically, riffing off this: When Helping Hurts: A Zemiological Analysis of a Child Protection Intervention in Adolescence—Implications for a Critical Child Protection Studies

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/11/6/263

I would positively welcome: When Affirmation Hurts: A Zemiological Analysis of Gender-Affirming Interventions in Adolescence—Implications for Critical Child Protection Studies

Should we open a book on how many times the word nuance is used from here on in?

So Ben has just established that violence was possible, so evidencing how dangerous the situation for Jo was?

This questioning puts me in mind of the regular question to TRAs on what exactly JKR said that's transphobic. Oh for BC to be able to publicly take someone high profile through her essay line by line like he is doing with the evidence here.

There appears to be a collective kind of babelfish going on for many people on the GI side that interprets everything through a filter of "womens rights" to mean "anti-trans" and absolutely nothing shifts that. So hearing facts, or listening in to a hearing like this, will not be high on their priority because the cognitive dissonance would be too much.

Everything perfectly reasonable is accused of being a "dogwhistle".

Deb Drake is scheduled after this witness. I'm clearing my diary.

So all that one side of a debate has to do to shut down reasonable debate and academic freedom is to threaten violence? I expect the incels are taking notes.

What was this conference that was cancelled? I'm a bit confused by all the talk of drifting from original topic etc.