Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

IF- I've never used Twitter, not on it, never been near it, thank God. But people tell me.

The Twitter thing has shades of GCC's reaction to their non-existent Twitterstorm.

BC- expected views on a range of issues, sex and gender being one such. IF-yes.

BC- IF you said maybe one day when I'm feeling brave, I'll call it out. Perhaps that's a good point to stop and we can pick that up tomorrow.

End for the day.

Interesting - so is BC painting IF as someone who is well-meaning but a bit cowardly, and using that to confirm the hostile environment at the OU to GC views?

I wish we could see the witness statements. This witness seems very much on JP's side so far. Seems to be happily agreeing that there was a culture of intimidation towards GC views.

Back at 10am tomorrow.

It was Julian Vigo who said that (wondering what the T was) anyway I think? So if that's the case- her statement is even incorrect there?
Anyone else recently listened and heard that?

Yes, I relistened today. Nothing Jo said could remotely be said to be denying the existence of trans people. After the explanation of the misunderstanding of which Diva JV was referring to that passage made a bit more sense, but I can see how the misunderstanding happened, and the "men in a dress" thing made perfect sense and did not have to be referring to trans people at all. There were several points (not there) where JP got tongue-tied and made comments about hoping those bits would be cut out, so that made sense. (Oddly she several times accidentally said "diversion" for "diversity" which I've never noticed anyone else do!) It was a rather familar kind of conversation in which academics play with words and ideas, sometimes engaging deeply with things and sometimes laughing along to get to the next thing. I really hope the judge listens.

TT commentary from this afternoon.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711382191203049574.html

I've realised the Savage Minds podcast I listened to was the most recent (2nd Oct) which is Julian Vigo with Human Rights barrister Anna Loufti. It was absolutely cracking but it's not the one that the judge has been referred to in this case. But maybe she will at some point. Going to listen to the right one now.

Note to self, get better specs.

Yes! I posted a link to that one (Anna Loutfi on SMinds)on the general WR chat thread on here. It really is cracking!

I was wondering that too - this witness seems like they should be on Jo's side rather than the OU's. Will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings....)

That Savage Minds podcast with Jo Phoenix—other matters aside, the days of optimism that the Reindorf Report would have a substantial impact must be long gone.

The University’s Senate and Council agreed a range of follow-up actions in response to the Reindorf Review. On behalf of the University, the Vice-Chancellor offered apologies to the external speakers and to staff and students. The Vice-Chancellor also apologised to trans and non-binary students and staff…

The Reindorf Review also identified specific issues that the University should address about the University’s relationship with Stonewall.…

In particular, Senate and Council were keen to ensure that the University has the right measures in place to militate against any potential chilling effect on academic freedom and freedom of speech within the law, that might arise from a continued relationship with Stonewall…

In the light of this careful and thorough consideration, including taking account of the views of the members of the University community, the majority of whom regard Stonewall as a valued partner, the University’s Senate and Council have endorsed the University’s continued participation in Stonewall’s Global Diversity Champions programme and submission to the Workplace Equality Index. You can see the basis upon which this decision was taken here. This conclusion has been reached in recognition of the important benefits institutionally and for individuals that currently arise from the relationship, alongside the range of strategies and safeguards designed to counter “potential illegalities or drawbacks”…

https://www.essex.ac.uk/staff/event/update-on-the-review-of-the-two-events-involving-external-speakers

More recently:
https://www.essex.ac.uk/blog/posts/2023/01/31/actions-arising-from-the-reindorf-review

Well, apart from the enjoyment of listening to the beacon of sanity and rationality that is BC, the net effect of listening to PB today was to make my children's behaviour seem almost reasonable by comparison. At least they've got beyond the narcissistic toddler stage of just saying 'no' to everything....

That Savage Minds podcast with Jo Phoenix—other matters aside, the days of optimism that the Reindorf Report would have a substantial impact must be long gone.

I found her comment at the end of the podcast very poignant. That she saw it as really positive and she hoped that she wasn't going to come back on in a couple of years and all her hopes were dashed.

I found her comment at the end of the podcast very poignant. That she saw it as really positive and she hoped that she wasn't going to come back on in a couple of years and all her hopes were dashed.

We are yet to catch up with this world where rationality is irrelevant when compared to considerations of identity and emotion.

I wonder what CP Snow would identify as the two cultures if the book were to be updated. Would any of the contributors to Brockman's The Third Culture have anticipated what is happening today? (NB: some feminists were already warning about the logical outcome of gender ideology in the 1990s.)

I’m settling in early today for updates via this thread

I do feel I get excellent value for money when I contribute to Ben Cooper’s coffers, both in terms of entertainment and results. Fingers crossed it pans out that way in this case

Wow, we're starting nearly on time today!

Hey, I'm in! (With exactly the same setup as yesterday, and no interaction with a clerk.)

WOW started on time

Just reading IFs witness statement. From what is said I can't wait for Dr Downes to he cross examined.

Sucking female cock is also mentioned twice

How are you reading IF's witness statement, please?

These witness statements sound incredible.

I'm so disappointed that we can't read them.