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Original poster

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

996 replies

ickky · 06/10/2023 15:32

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 15:26

BC is going to be longer with IF than his estimated 3hours.

Datun · 09/10/2023 15:26

PB said that anyone wanting to join thr organisation must believe what had been said in the podcast to be true, that trans women are forcing women to suck female cock.

Taking the forced aspect out, I wish someone would ask whether or not PB believes that lesbians should include transwomen in their dating pools.

Fucking say it.

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 15:27

IF likely to be all of tomorrow. Deb Drake is after IF.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 15:28

Why would earlier witnesses take longer to question than the later ones? <thick>

Tinysoxxx · 09/10/2023 15:29

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 15:08

It's also a bit fucking rich given that gender ideology has meant that there are no fucking public toilets which I feel comfortable to use cos of the likelihood of finding a 'woman' with a cock in them.

Show quote history

Do you know what would be good?
Being able to think logically and rationally with facts and data. Perhaps having lots of people talking in a network about how everyone can see this going forward with all this new stuff on gender and sex and how that creates problems with legalities and practicalities…..oh wait….

Datun · 09/10/2023 15:30

GCITC · 09/10/2023 15:23

The panel have questions!

P. In your evidence you refer to facilities and services. What do you mean?

Pb. Within OU - Toilet facilities changing rooms services in wider context of victim services and access to services for trans people, health care

P. What was the ou not providing?

Pb. No system to capture different pronouns. Had to individually add to email signatures. Had to tell people my pronouns

P. How would the creation of gcrn affect the services they provide?

Pb. The ou had not at that point made commitments to trans or non binary people with regards to pronouns and toilets/changing facilities. By endorsing one view fully supporting and accepting that view they wouldn't need to facilitate pronouns and toilet facilities.

Why would the creation of the GCRN be viewed as the OU fully endorsing their viewpoint??

This person is seriously saying that the creation of GCRN would result in the OU deciding against any kind of facility for trans people?

They can't bloody bear it, can they? Even the slightest nod to a different point of view cannot be tolerated.

InvisibleDragon · 09/10/2023 15:31

@Sisterpita yes - a non binary person would probably say that they are not cis and might also identify as trans. Or might not go that far and prefer to call themselves gender diverse or gender expansive. But definitely not cis. Or, heaven forfend, cis-het.

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 15:31

IF saying how JP was the perfect fit for the OU, joining her spiritual home.

GCITC · 09/10/2023 15:31

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 15:28

Why would earlier witnesses take longer to question than the later ones? <thick>

Generally because the same questions won't be put to each witness.

BC and team will have put a lot of hours in knowing who is best to answer certain questions.

The same questions may be summarised and witnesses asked to dis/agree but won't be dealt with in detail unless something advantageous comes up.

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 15:31

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 15:28

Why would earlier witnesses take longer to question than the later ones? <thick>

Because the barristers can with agreement take it as read that the witnesses would all respond the same to a particular question.

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 15:36

@InvisibleDragon thanks

VWdieselnightmare · 09/10/2023 15:38

GCITC · 09/10/2023 15:07

Ben was asking PB whether knowing a letter had been signed by 360 members of staff would make PB think twice about joining the organisation the letter was against.

PB said that anyone wanting to join thr organisation must believe what had been said in the podcast to be true, that trans women are forcing women to suck female cock.

But Nancy Kelley of Stonewall compared lesbians who weren't prepared to suck female cock to racists, didn't she? She urged the BBC not to publish an article about the cotton ceiling on the basis that it was transphobic.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 15:40

Sexual racists, I believe. 😑

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 15:44

BC is allowing this witness the bundles open at the same time.

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 15:44

I may regret saying this but, it is so nice to have a witness answer a simple question.

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 09/10/2023 15:47

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 15:40

Sexual racists, I believe. 😑

tbh, I've a bad habit of conflating Kelley and McGahey.

Under cross-examination by Bailey’s barrister, Ben Cooper QC, McGahey defended the idea of overcoming the cotton ceiling, and suggested that “you can persuade a lesbian that she might want to . . . have sex with a trans woman in a way that was not coercive”.
McGahey compared the idea of encouraging male-bodied people to break through the cotton ceiling and have sex with lesbians with Nelson Mandela’s fight to end racial segregation in post-apartheid South Africa.
McGahey’s comments at the tribunal appear to echo those made last year by Nancy Kelley, the chief executive of Stonewall, who likened not wanting to date transgender people with racial and other prejudices.
One lesbian barrister, who did not want to be named, told The Times that promoting a strategy to overcome lesbians’ sexual barriers was “ethically corrupt” and should be “universally condemned”. To “stifle a woman’s well-informed and utterly reasonable outrage” to the idea, she added, was “entirely inappropriate”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bar-chiefs-in-free-speech-dispute-lpw0s2psw (available on usual sites)

Bar chiefs in free speech dispute

Bar leaders are at the centre of a row over policing sexual preferences and lawyers’ freedom of speech on social media platforms. The battle has blown up during

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bar-chiefs-in-free-speech-dispute-lpw0s2psw

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 15:49

RethinkingLife · 09/10/2023 15:47

tbh, I've a bad habit of conflating Kelley and McGahey.

Under cross-examination by Bailey’s barrister, Ben Cooper QC, McGahey defended the idea of overcoming the cotton ceiling, and suggested that “you can persuade a lesbian that she might want to . . . have sex with a trans woman in a way that was not coercive”.
McGahey compared the idea of encouraging male-bodied people to break through the cotton ceiling and have sex with lesbians with Nelson Mandela’s fight to end racial segregation in post-apartheid South Africa.
McGahey’s comments at the tribunal appear to echo those made last year by Nancy Kelley, the chief executive of Stonewall, who likened not wanting to date transgender people with racial and other prejudices.
One lesbian barrister, who did not want to be named, told The Times that promoting a strategy to overcome lesbians’ sexual barriers was “ethically corrupt” and should be “universally condemned”. To “stifle a woman’s well-informed and utterly reasonable outrage” to the idea, she added, was “entirely inappropriate”.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bar-chiefs-in-free-speech-dispute-lpw0s2psw (available on usual sites)

Show quote history

😱Is that the same woman? I totally missed that.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2023 15:49

"One lesbian barrister, who did not want to be named, told The Times that promoting a strategy to overcome lesbians’ sexual barriers was “ethically corrupt” and should be “universally condemned”. "

She's not wrong, is she.

Datun · 09/10/2023 15:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2023 15:49

"One lesbian barrister, who did not want to be named, told The Times that promoting a strategy to overcome lesbians’ sexual barriers was “ethically corrupt” and should be “universally condemned”. "

She's not wrong, is she.

Totally highlights PB's assertion that you shouldn't separate the T from the LGB, because it wasn't fair on the T.

Bloody entitlement is off the scale

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 15:54

Don't think it's the same person. This is Jane Mulcahy KC, not McGahey.

elkiedee · 09/10/2023 16:04

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone else has questioned it, but think there are possibly some mistakes in the cast list at the top. Sarah Earle is listed as a witness for the OU and for the Claimant - the link to a compilation of links to coverage says the witness for the Claimant is Selina Todd. Chris/Christopher Williams and Cath/Catherine Tomlinson are listed twice among the Respondent's witnesses, though taking that into account leaves 18 out of 20 witnesses (I'm a pedant and have worked as a legal secretary in the past).

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 16:06

BC - Reindorf report and culture of fear. Do you agree that's a good description re stigmatized views and academic freedom. IF - yes, in theory.

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 16:08

IF maintaining OU not same situation as at Essex. GCRN wouldn't have happened at Essex.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 16:12

Another non-Twitter user who was told there was a huge outcry on Twitter.

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 16:13

IF getting bundle anxiety.