Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

I love watching BC at work because although I don't work in law, I do have to sometimes lead people through difficult and tricky facts in a large meeting when they are talking rubbish. I have to be similarly prepared - usually I've been on a project for months to know the information upside down and inside out. I'm in total awe of his ability to prepare for each client so thoroughly, think on his feet and yet stay so calm and logical in court. And then do it all again for another client. It's fucking fantastic.

My garden centre purchase has proved invaluable. It's like I paid for a private Monty Python/Little Britain sketch, and got my full money's worth.

This is almost as good as the support dog act. I'm wondering how many OU witnesses are working out whether there's a fire escape they can exit through.

I've just read the unrollled thread. It would appear that he wanted to leave the term 'female cock' hanging there, jauntily, in the air. 😄

Perhaps he'll get a chance to give the cotton ceiling a mention

@MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving thanks - so they want 3rd (4th?) spaces e.g. male, female, disabled and unisex toilets. A perfectly sensible solution.

Isn’t that GC as I understood 3rd spaces are othering and so transphobic?

I'm not sure that's actually true if you're on a work trip with all your expenses being paid by your employer. If you're staying in a hotel paid for by your employer and eating food paid for by your employer then even when not actually working I think a certain standard of behaviour is expected.

Also, most contracts these days include something about not discriminating against others in general on social media etc and I think making loud comments that could be overheard by Jo's supporters in a court case about alleged discrimination at the very least is butting up against the line of what is acceptable / causing reputational damage for the OU. Of course the OU seem completely on board with this behaviour so unlikely to be pulled up on it.

Just catching up with this thread

i fear the OU witnesses will start to need their mums & support wombats soon 😆😆

the lack of critical thinking by the OU is bloody chilling. Poor Jo

OT but is there an updated style guide for verb and pronoun agreement?

I'm unclear as to whether singular verb + plural pronoun recognises NB status whereas plural verb + plural pronoun is open to misinterpretation when it refers to one person.

I know there are theatre programmes with both NB and single sex pronouns where the performer has commented they'd prefer both to be used and would consider it hurtful if the NB only were used rather than preferred single sex pronoun.

It certainly came across as intentional!

Oh that was just splendid. I wish these tribunals could be filmed and recorded. We could splice together all the female cocks into a Menno-Esque montage

Which is why I said I agree the witnesses should not have been making comments in the public gallery and in and around the building. I am surprised the HR person didn’t advise them to be more circumspect, but they had a legal right to be there.

Phew, I'm back. I see we're on to questions from the bench.

Was always gonna be the way. Trans right activism can not be explained in terms of biology let alone science generally, fails linguistically, collapses as any form of logic, can't be explained as social justice.

And of course, as all is obfuscated by men shouting at women at LWS, trying to stop Kath Stock speaking at Oxford Union, refusal to engage in good faith with the likes of Helen Joyce, unable to defend Tavistock scandal, happy to wallow in the secrecy of gender ideology teaching in schools, ready at a moment's notice to try and cancel the likes of Róisín Murphy, satisfied for the likes of Starmer to say Labour are sorted while Rosie Duffield lives in fear attending their collective conference.

And it all laser focussed into this endless satire as Ben Cooper doesn't allow the TRA witnesses to escape, avoid, obscure.

Just how did Western civilization get to this point of moral dead end, intellectual incuriosity, victimhood status, anti science and anti free speech?

What would be the reaction of Starmer and the Labour movement generally if you forced them all to watch this?

Still stick up for the nihilism that leads to the statement "sucking female cock"? Just when did porn become the guiding light of Western intellectualism?

So a disembodied female voice from the third member of the bench.

Good question panel member.

What did she say?

Dr B did not like the fact that the OU did not have a system to 'capture' pronouns.

The panel have questions!

P. In your evidence you refer to facilities and services. What do you mean?

Pb. Within OU - Toilet facilities changing rooms services in wider context of victim services and access to services for trans people, health care

P. What was the ou not providing?

Pb. No system to capture different pronouns. Had to individually add to email signatures. Had to tell people my pronouns

P. How would the creation of gcrn affect the services they provide?

Pb. The ou had not at that point made commitments to trans or non binary people with regards to pronouns and toilets/changing facilities. By endorsing one view fully supporting and accepting that view they wouldn't need to facilitate pronouns and toilet facilities.

@Ameanstreakamilewide asking how the GCRN would impact the provision of facilities.

Dr B- upset that toilet facilities were all binary, in her building at least.

No re-examination. Smart move.

Ian Fribbance next.

I don’t want to derail the thread but do non-binary people believe and use the binary prefixes Cis and Trans?

😁