Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Clearly PB is in the trans bubble and that reality is transphobic.

'Let's pick that apart a bit' is always fatal.

I hope the next 17 OU witnesses are shitting themselves.

Savage Minds broadcast now.

This is all because they interpret equality law as they want it to be and not as it is. Very easy to do in a setting like the OU but far from easy in a court with a judge and BC pinning you down with questions.

Who decides what order the OU witnesses come in?

Are the OU witnesses in alphabetical order? Or are they leading with the best they've got?

Snap!

I hope the next 17 OU witnesses are shitting themselves.

They're all in the gallery watching, aren't they?

What I can't quite understand is the continued arrogance of the tone when things are going so badly in terms of reality meets self-ID? I suppose it's the true believer.

FGS are all the witnesses going to be of this calibre? I guess it's good in that it brings the absurdity under harsh daylight.

Lunch break will be at 1.

from their witness statement

PB was very upset with Jo about the Savage minds podcast and was making a 2nd formal complaint to Dr Drake, her line manager.

Wants to know why THE OU had not re affirmed their commitment to trans people and what support was available beyond the employee assistance program.

OU does but it also has to take into account people's availability which may be limited because of the professional obligations of most witnesses.

OU legal team may have planned a thematic development of their case which may take some time to be revealed.

thanks RethinkingLife (and everyone posting)

Dr Boukli said something a while ago now when the discussion was on the article about sports that was passed over as BC got to his next question. BC was quoting several descriptors such as "male-bodied", and Dr Boukli said they was upset that transwomen were described as men. I think the witness finds it difficult to reconcile reality, EA and academic freedom of speech.

This Wally is going to start screaming about feeling unsafe and trans genocide shortly.

How? The speakers/respondents and their equivocations aren't going to be covered in MSM in any level of detail (if at all) and not many observers are allowed in so it's unlikely there's much discussion of this outside MN and X.

The witness order is agreed in advance between the parties.
After all the evidence is heard, both parties (lawyers) make closing submissions. These highlight legal arguments and key points to the Employment Judge and Panel members.

Dr B is saying she took exception to the distinction between the T and the LGB. BC - how is that discrimination against the T?

So we're discussing the Savage Minds broadcast, and down the rabbit hole of sex v gender. BC exploring that the needs of an LGB support group are different from the needs of a TQ+ group. Witness cannot see the distinction.

Sorry cross posted with RethinkingLife.
Jo only had one witness, so whilst the OU would have a preferred order for theirs, the running order is formally agreed between the parties prior to the start of the Tribunal.

BC - they should all, including the T, have the right not to be discriminated against.
Dr B- but trans people can be gay.

They are not familiar with the self ID conflict with Lesbian and Gay rights. FFS

PB REALLY REALLY needs to actually read the Equality Act.