Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

BC- do you accept the LG interests can be in conflict with those of T people?
Dr B- yes.

BC is so clever, step by step, take them down the path to completely undermine their argument.

BC did a long pause and came up with the analogy of a black lesbian - a support group for black people would not focus on her needs as a lesbian. Witness said they shouldn't discriminate and is clearly of the position that not focussed on supporting that need = discriminatory (from and LBT vs TQ perspective)

Waffle from DrB. BC- well, the tribunal can assess that answer...

Judge wants to listen to the savage minds podcast herself!

This person seems to have contradicted themselves multiple times during this cross.

“Safe spaces”…? Yeah, not in there.

Break for lunch, did they say how long for? Is it an hour? (I need to get some work done!)

Did the witness actually answer this?

Anyone know what time we're back?

Well that's rather racist in thinking of Dr. Avi in my humble opinion. I'm horribly fascinated by how muddled this Associate Professor at the Open University appears to be.

No.

Basically no. PB - I understand the argument being made.

Does anyone know which Savage Minds podcast Jo did a bad thing on?

Well that was mind boggling. Please everyone read the TT commentary.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711305146611679703.html

I think it is back at 2pm, but who knows what time we will be let in.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/jo-phoenix/id1535634480?i=1000522681958

Not that I could make out. They seemed to struggle with the meaning/concept of distinction versus discrimination.

Overlapped with earlier link.

Podcast:

Listening to the SM podcast, thanks for the link!

Thank you - i'll go have a watch of that.

You know when you ask a child did you break the window and you get an answer about last Tuesday in school the big boys were playing badminton and then my sandwich fell on the ground and there was an ant beside it who ran away from a bird etc etc . They just keep talking in a disingenuous way to avoid incriminating themselves.

So PB is far from a bystander in this

So, in a nutshell, JP didn't talk about the T's enough?

I think whoever said earlier that the problem is they've applied a version of the Equality Act as they want it to be - and I'd add how Stonewall told them it should be - has put their finger on it. They were told something that appealed to their general desire to "be kind", none of the pitfalls of adopting that wholesale were pointed out because it wasn't in SW's interests to do so and they were (still are?) so blinded by determination that they could get the law changed soon anyway, and it became an unquestioning groupthink.

Now they're faced with someone who can spell out the facts and the nuance of the Equality Act inside out, back to front and upside down and it must be dawning on them at some level that they have massively fucked up by not applying more critical thinking to the original EDI training...

PB thinks the Equality Act is actually the Trans overlord act as far as I can tell. Very concerned about discrimination against trans people up to and including hurt feelings from misgendering.

Not bothered about real harm to women who don't comply with PB's stamped foot. Quite happy to be nasty and vindictive by raising formal complaints and to try and compel people not to say what they see.

A true zealot.