Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Bc - do you agree with me that you are suggesting that describing trans women as male is illegal, as it goes against the equality act 2010?

Tumbleweed

PV - what is the question?

Judge intervenes to try to understand. (Good luck with that)

They are unwilling to answer clear questions. Because their behaviour is indefensible, and quite probably illegal / discriminatory. Person clearly thinks we're not allowed to mention the truth that transwomen's bodies are male.... wonder if that extends to victims of transwomen criminals like the child attacked by 6ft 5 Dolatowski? I'm guessing yes.

I am finding this witness to be highly offensive to me as a GC woman and very upsetting to me both as a GC woman and UK taxpayer. I need actual, literal support chocolate.

Just heard a very loud sigh, don't know from whom. 😂

Yes from Tribunal Tweets it appears that the witness thinks the term "biological male" in an article about MTF trans people in women's sports is in breach of the EA.

There's a bit of confusion in that there's discussion of an article that the witness is (mis)attributing to Jon Pike.

Me, ickky, it was me.

PB (conveniently) doesn't remember what she was reading or making comments on, but is sure it was from John Pike (another member of the GC network).

😂

Reading the posts on BC's straightforward questions and the incomprehension they're causing reminds me of the, possibly apocryphal, reaction of Southern hemisphere people to Cook's ship.

And yet her email contains three direct quotes from the article (not by Jon Pike) and the URL is identical.

Thank you so much for this. I didn't even try to get into this tribunal, astounded at what I'm reading here😮.

Dr B- my position is that sex is immutable. But...
Judge intervenes.

BC to PB Your opinion is a GC academic cannot mention a transwoman is male.

PB replies no.

Judge intervene again.

PB thinks anyone can say anything.

BC - I really must pin you down here.

Dr B- any colleague can think, say or write anything but the OU should intervene.

She believes in academic freedom of speech, but wrote her email as her concerns around the obligations of the OU to abide by the law (equality act) were at stake. BC exploring in forensic depth with where the breach of the EA was.

A general disturbance in The Force?

BC: I'm sorry to interrupt but I really must pin you down here...

They haven’t got a clue what the breach of the EA was because there wasn’t a breach by Jo.

PV - everyone needs to be treated with respect and dignity. I hoped the OU was getting legal advice on circulating articles that are degrading to trans people

Dr B- I hoped the OU was getting legal advice on circulation of material degrading to trans people.

...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced (by the Clerk)

I'm not being flippant when I say that ND people could find this extremely challenging in the workplace (lack of direct answers)

BC saying 'let's pick that apart a bit' reminds me of the way I used to say to my pre-school child 'no, the shoe goes on the foot, on the foot. Yes, not your hand, your foot....' 😂

Does person think just saying person doesn't understand is a good look? Surely basic English comprehension is a prerequisite for person's job.

She's outright lying i think now, in terms of what she's saying now vs what she wrote before.