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Original poster

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

996 replies

ickky · 06/10/2023 15:32

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
LarkLane · 09/10/2023 12:17

It smells of coaching to me.

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 12:17

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 11:59

It was very similar in one of my cases 1 claimant and c20 witnesses. Yes some of us did discuss, but in private. However, 20 vs 1 is always going to be intimidating.

I agree the witnesses should not have been making comments in the public gallery and in and around the building. I am surprised the HR person didn’t advise them to be more circumspect, but they had a legal right to be there. In the pub or elsewhere they are free to talk as they wish provided they don’t breach confidentiality.

Remember what ever you think of the witnesses they are human beings who will feel nervous and concerned about giving evidence. They probably think they have done nothing wrong and so are aggrieved Jo has taken this to ET.

Remember on this thread, and others, we are talking about the case and making comments about people, not always complementary. Think about the witness in the Allison Bailey case with their mum and support dog how would they feel about our comments. I do appreciate it is different in person but it is human nature to support your side.

Show quote history

We are also allowed to call out nonsense and bullshit. That's free speech.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 12:17

Maybe they think it makes them sound more knowledgeable/ professional...

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 12:17

It's dehumanising isn't it? They/them are trying to distance themselves from what they/them are doing to Jo.

pronounsbundlebundle · 09/10/2023 12:18

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 09/10/2023 12:15

Yes, you’ve put your finger on why I find it odd that Dr Boukli only refers to Jo as the claimant.

Is that normal in an ET? Are witnesses discouraged from using names and encouraged to use court terminology?

Edited
Show quote history

The utter GALL of someone talking about 'deadnaming' and 'misgendering' then not having the basic courtesy to use "Professor Phoenix"

Really shows who they are.

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 12:18

@ickky I agree but so are the other side.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 09/10/2023 12:19

I note there are 3 people still in the lobby, I presume they haven't passed security checks. I count 14 observers not connected to the court/case.

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 12:20

I’m in the lobby and have been for ages. I got in OK last week.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 12:20

BC: That's not my question - focus on the words I am using...

I felt that from here!

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 12:20

Dr Boukli has given a very long speech. BC- But that's not my question.

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 12:21

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 12:18

@ickky I agree but so are the other side.

I 100% agree that the other side can and do say whatever they want, usually with an added bonus of rape and death threats.

I actually thing we are in general fair.

Please don't try to police our "tone".

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 12:21

Sounds like they have been coached - spouting long pre-prepared answers that might be tangentially related to the question.

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 12:22

LipbalmOrKnickers · 09/10/2023 12:20

BC: That's not my question - focus on the words I am using...

I felt that from here!

I can't get access. Please tell me more about why Ben said this! Got to love this man!!

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 12:22

Dr B - anyone can say anything at the OU as long as they affirm the trans position.

And there we have it.

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 12:22

CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 12:20

Dr Boukli has given a very long speech. BC- But that's not my question.

Please listen to my words. 😂

OP posts:
OvaHere · 09/10/2023 12:22

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2023 12:21

Sounds like they have been coached - spouting long pre-prepared answers that might be tangentially related to the question.

Maybe they've practiced on Mumsnet. 😁

JoIsBraverThanIAm · 09/10/2023 12:24

I gave up and closed my browser, after waiting for ages and restarting and trying another device etc. and nobody attempting any security checks with me - it's possible I'm filtered out because the first name I put in the window doesn't match my email address, but I got in fine last week. Might try again another day; pity not to get to hear any Ben!

Sisterpita · 09/10/2023 12:25

ickky · 09/10/2023 12:21

I 100% agree that the other side can and do say whatever they want, usually with an added bonus of rape and death threats.

I actually thing we are in general fair.

Please don't try to police our "tone".

Show quote history

@ickky that was not what I was doing.

DialSquare · 09/10/2023 12:25

Thanks for the updates. I've only got access to this thread so really appreciate it.

And I didn't think I could admire BC more but I was wrong!

VWdieselnightmare · 09/10/2023 12:25

VWdieselnightmare · 09/10/2023 12:13

The OU has put up 20 of these people. Did no one there consider the reputational damage they might inflict on themselves? Dr Boukli is apparently one of the rising academics trying to establish Zemiology as a new area of study/ discipline. I suspect Zemiology has just been badly holed below the waterline.

I'd love to know what Helen Pluckrose makes of Zemiology.

Sorry, I miscounted. 18 of them, I think.

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 12:26

ickky · 09/10/2023 12:17

We are also allowed to call out nonsense and bullshit. That's free speech.

Show quote history

Slave owners thought they had done nothing wrong and felt aggrieved when they were no longer able to treat people like property. These MRAs may feel aggrieved and believe they have done nothing wrong but I cannot treat abusers like snowflakes. They have made active choices to disregard the needs of 50% of the population. I do not condone threats and violence but I also do not think we should be receiving any pressure to be more 'female' in our care for people who do not care for others.

LarkLane · 09/10/2023 12:28

Dr B - anyone can say anything at the OU as long as they affirm the trans position
Great own goal. Keep em coming.

GCITC · 09/10/2023 12:28

That was a VERY long pause

Original poster
ickky · 09/10/2023 12:29

This is very hard going. Difficult to understand their views.

OP posts:
CriticalCondition · 09/10/2023 12:29

BC- using biological male in this article to describe a TW athlete you think is a breach of the EA?
Dr B - I don't understand the question.