Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

They have a gender identity belief and believe everyone has a gender

Erasing the existence of agender people, I see.
Phobic, hateful, etc etc

😂 You'd think they were making it up, as they go...🤔

Oh, i see. 🤔

It was very similar in one of my cases 1 claimant and c20 witnesses. Yes some of us did discuss, but in private. However, 20 vs 1 is always going to be intimidating.

I agree the witnesses should not have been making comments in the public gallery and in and around the building. I am surprised the HR person didn’t advise them to be more circumspect, but they had a legal right to be there. In the pub or elsewhere they are free to talk as they wish provided they don’t breach confidentiality.

Remember what ever you think of the witnesses they are human beings who will feel nervous and concerned about giving evidence. They probably think they have done nothing wrong and so are aggrieved Jo has taken this to ET.

Remember on this thread, and others, we are talking about the case and making comments about people, not always complementary. Think about the witness in the Allison Bailey case with their mum and support dog how would they feel about our comments. I do appreciate it is different in person but it is human nature to support your side.

Well, no, what you have to understand is that Jo has been deemed an outcast and heretic so it's OK to treat those people as subhuman and incapable of self-ID.

Terrifying that these people are academics. How? Are there really no standards - e.g. ability to follow a logical argument - at all?

I think they (general genderist people) consider "agender" to be the "gender" of not having a "gender". Don't expect them to make sense.

Oh, it's a bit like people with religious beliefs who claim atheism is also a belief in a religion... but more batshit.

How on earth is this person an academic? They haven't been able to follow a single thing BC has said. They are not being deliberately obtuse, they genuinely can't follow it.

Judge intervenes again.

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn at an ET as witnesses we were ask to observe as much as possible.

Dr Boukli can't remember what she was talking about.

It is possible they are very nervous and this is impacting their memory and ability to follow a train of thought..

Brief summary from PB witness statement

PB was aware of JP’s GC beliefs from an early stage, claims this has no bearing on their cordial relationship.

They were working together on a module that PB was chairing on Queer Criminology. When Jo gave feedback of “What on earth do I have in common with a transman?” PB thought Jo was confused and meant to say transwoman. PB also thought it had a dual meaning, they thought that Jo as a cis woman had nothing in common with a transwoman and that as a lesbian she couldn’t find anything in common with either a transman or a transwoman.

Can you imagine what she must have been like as a lecturer?

I think they're so used to being able to self ID as competent / right they can't really cope with BC and his attention to detail and calling out of their absolutely blatant lies / obfuscation. Even the judge is joining in with remedial level logic and facts now 😂

I get the sense they're used to making things up as they go along.

Dr Boukli says noone should feel ostracized.
I can feel a killer point coming...

Just a heads up that Dr Boukli's witness statement says that Dr Boukli is transgender and uses they/them pronouns

Okay - in that case they/them had trouble finding toilet facilities to use?

When Jo gave feedback of “What on earth do I have in common with a transman?” PB thought Jo was confused and meant to say transwoman. PB also thought it had a dual meaning, they thought that Jo as a cis woman had nothing in common with a transwoman and that as a lesbian she couldn’t find anything in common with either a transman or a transwoman.

Oh... I... is it....
What?

We see people guessing and imagining and strawmanning and making up what 'we' think on here all the time, mad that it happens like this between 'friends'.

So Jo gave her colleagues the courtesy of using their preferred pronouns but this person won't even use Jo's name. That's telling

@popebishop It is the old "hidden sinister meaning" again.

OMG imagine having to work with this person - never actually answers a direct question.

The OU has put up 20 of these people. Did no one there consider the reputational damage they might inflict on themselves? Dr Boukli is apparently one of the rising academics trying to establish Zemiology as a new area of study/ discipline. I suspect Zemiology has just been badly holed below the waterline.

I'd love to know what Helen Pluckrose makes of Zemiology.

Hmm I wouldn't call a colleague "a friend" if they insisted on calling me a cis woman. Sod right off with that pretence Dr. Avi.

Yes, you’ve put your finger on why I find it odd that Dr Boukli only refers to Jo as the claimant.

Is that normal in an ET? Are witnesses discouraged from using names and encouraged to use court terminology?

No MyLady it's not normal in an ET.