Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

[HagoftheNorth]

I’m regularly astonished (tho I guess not any longer surprised) by the number of organisations trumpeting gender identity as if it were an accepted fact. Most recently in response to Sunak’s statement on the matter; Women’s aid federations declaring their belief that TWAW; Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender (not corrected, as Sunak specifically said people can’t change SEX); I’ve heard some people saying that it was illegal for Sunak to make such a statement - again, no pushback.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Does anyone know of a forum where people are actually prepared to debate this and defend their GI viewpoint?

Helen Joyce's theory of the sunk costs of the elites becomes ever more apparent every day.
Right now my therapy professional association are due to have their annual conference. I don't even dare raise my reservations over GI from the floor.

Twitter or X seems to be the frontline for debate. It aint pretty though

This is pretty much the only place I feel comfortable discussing it.

Not reddit, that's for sure.

Andrew Boff (GLA) on R5 last night declaring that of course people can change gender

But they still won't supply us with an actual definition of what this magic 'gender' thing is that they want to change.
Implying people can change 'gender' implies that everyone has one.

Gender isn't a tangible thing, dysphoria is a psychological issue not a physical one.
What EXACTLY are they supposed to be changing and why the fuckety fuck should that mean they be treated as the opposite sex or 'no sex' if we go along with the non binary nonsense?

In all honesty, I thought everyone didn't have an opinion about it because it's a no-go topic. I'm glad I came on Mumsnet and found that that isn't true. More people are sharing their honest feelings and opinions which is important.

No.

Because you get told off for being swayed by the narrative peddled in order to decide people. E.g. narrative from government to get people against immigration crossing the channel and the same against trans people.

The second main argument I have come across- why do we care so much about this and not about child poverty and food banks etc.

I work in a professional job so don't waste my time. ( dont want to bring prpfession into disrepute etc.

You'd be really surprised or maybe not regarding the kind of people who have swallowed the TWAW narrative. I wouldn't have thought it was widespread in my line of work. But a sort of gentle disagreement erupted in a group I'm in,which i kept out of. All the sort of stereotypical lines were said. And the mods just said to be kind and acceptance of people is important. And diversity etc. The majority were silent and I'm sure were thinking what a load of crap- just didn't come out and say it.

Tiktok

You can discuss it on twitter now and here to some extent, if you say anything at all critical on reddit then you will be banned forever.

For the past few years I have raised the issue with friends a few times and in the past they would demure and back away from the issue saying they didn't know enough about it and so on but recently they have all come to me and spoken about how concerned they are about what is happening to children and women's rights under the banner or gender ideology. I also know a Psychiatrist who recently quit the NHS gender identity clinic in out local city, they haven't said too much but they clearly have serious reservations about what is going on and think this will all come back to bite them in future. I do think the tide is turning.

I’ve been surprised to see a few gender critical posts from my LinkedIn network in the last couple of weeks. Not from people I would have expected. In response to Sunak’s speech and other things in the news. 99% of comments supportive.

I would say it’s actually impossible to debate it on mumsnet. It’s become a horrible echo chamber of fear mongering and misinformation.

I do think there's a gradual change underway - which is why we get the occasional unhinged TRA on here determined to shut us up.
If you take a look at the comments under articles in the Times & Telegraph they're full on TERF. Both papers have doggedly researched and exposed what's happening - especially in the NHS & education and people are no longer holding back - despite the Times having a real name policy.
Going for children in schools and via healthcare has exposed a moral redundancy at the heart of this ideology and responsible adults see this. They're starting to ignore the threats / intimidation and speak out.

I think both sides have become entrenched and defensive. But freedom of speech is so important and I think most people would agree.

For example, I wouldn’t dream of going around telling obese people that they’re fat. That would be harassment. But neither should I be compelled to refer to an obese person as “slim”.

Is it an echo chamber when it's the only place on the entire internet* (and IRL for many of us) where we can discuss this relatively openly? (Mumsnet rules permitting) We are all exposed to the trans activist arguments every day from every angle. I don't feel like I am in an echo chamber. It's just the one place in my life that I know I can speak the (almost) truth without getting accused of being a terrible person.

*Bar TwitterX, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

Other than MN I have a small group of female friends and a partner with whom I can discuss the issues.
Would not raise it anywhere else or with anyone else unless they did because of a fear of being labelled.

Also on twitter, trans activists will reply to you but as soon as you present them with facts, research, articles and so on they just block you they do not engage in any conversation at all.

I've seen several people try to raise the issue of men in women's sport on a couple of football forums.
It's usually reported and shut down as soon as someone dares suggest that it might not be fair.

Twitter definitely more liberal than Mumsnet since Musk took over.

Obviously the Tories are having the conversation.

As are other political parties and unions. Although most are still at the stage of accusing women of being bigots for wanting to protect single sex spaces.

I have spoken to taxi drivers, security guards, office workers, shop staff and discovered that they all know what a woman is, want to live and let live but think men shouldn't be in women's changing rooms and that children shouldn't be taught that they can choose whether to grow up to be a man or a woman.

As KJK says, be the billboard, have those conversations, because each little bit breaks down the impression that only bigots know what a woman is.

No. I have tried and just got labelled a bigot. I am scared it will affect me in the workplace, so I just nod and smile. Definitely impossible on Twitter, which I use for work. TRAs just gather in abusive crowds against any woman who even brings up men in safe spaces with specious arguments like " You have mixed loos in your home, right?"

That's because their argument cannot stand up on its merit - it is usually very emotionally based. They stay stuck in an epistemological bubble where their arguments aren't challenged and they can carry on believing nonsense. Win win for them.

I actually think one of the biggest areas of progress for this will be when the cost of speaking out against this is no longer social/ professional suicide.
Sooo many people keeping quiet out of fear - that's not a healthy place to be in any society.

Cattenberg
For example, I wouldn’t dream of going around telling obese people that they’re fat. That would be harassment. But neither should I be compelled to refer to an obese person as “slim”.

I mean, I agree with you, but I think the assumption that all GC feminists want to go round harassing trans people by telling that they're not really female etc. sort of misses the point.

The aim of most GC feminists is not to be mean to a person clearly in distress, most of us don't actually give a shit what people want to call themselves, how they wish to dress etc.

My aim is to keep single sex spaces for women genuinely single sex.
My aim is protect vulnerable children from making life altering decisions about going on hormones and surgery before they are mature enough to understand the consequences.
My aim is to stop schools , hospitals, universities and other public institutions peddling lies about biological reality.

The problem is that these two things have been conflated. Which is why I roll my eyes when people try and be balanced by saying things like 'well I don't agree with men in women's prisons, but well, you know....TWAW, what's the harm?'.
The harm is that these two things are not unconnected. The first thing would not be happening without the second thing. The idea that men could be in women's spaces unchallenged would not have been accepted 30 years ago, so the groundwork of lies had to be laid to enable this. The foundational lie of TWAW is what is supporting men in women's prisons, spaces, sports teams etc. There is a direct connection between these two things.

So it's not really about being mean to trans people, it's about maintaining reality based policies, laws and decisions around public healthcare, spaces and services for women and girls.

That argument about your toilets at home pisses me off no end - it's such a stupid comparison.

Of course the toilets in your house are for whoever wants to use them, presumably you have vetted whoever comes into your home. They are your friends and family, people you know - it's not comparable to a public toilet by any means.

A more realistic comparison would be to ask a woman if she would allow a random strange man who knocked on her door at 11pm at night to come in and use her bathroom. I bet most women wouldn't, with good reason.

I think accusations of MN being an echo chamber are misrepresenting the site. Usually by someone who either disagrees with the majority of posters or who may plead for kindness and compassion while ignoring that their own goes only in one direction and then they receive pushback or for many other reasons, bar the truth.

This board is open to the public. On nearly every thread there are voices disagreeing with one another. And most fearmongering and misinformation is analysed and discussed in depth over time. Maybe not immediately but revisited over time.

There is so much analysis available on these threads trying to sort through falsehoods, false claims, misrepresentations, studies, papers and interviews to name just a few. But maybe posters claiming the site is full of misinformation are talking about the wider site?

Or about the misinformation being posted by people who have opinions they cannot support with evidence or even logic? I do find that very wearing.

@Farmageddon Absolutely, they do not want to have the conversation and they know we see right though them, they just want us to bow down and let them walk all over us and its an affront to them that we don't.

Hopefully in time people will get braver speak out against it, I do think the tide is turning.

Another perspective: I am of Asian origin, and in S Asia there are many trans women. As in Thailand. There always have been. The difference is they do not enter women's spaces, sports, prisons, or services. Or pontificate on women's issues. These people are really marginalised in many ways, and they have my sympathy. I don't care what they wear or call themselves.

But not the ones in the UK who want to take over women's spaces.