Page 35 | Rishi Sunak - "a man is a man, a woman is a woman"

Ellos · 2023-10-04T20:44:22+00:00

..and how we shouldn't be bullied into believing somebody can be any sex that they want. [[https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh/]] AIBU to want to give him a round of applause? I know, it's convenient timing and obviously a strategy move but how good is it to hear that straight from the horses mouth when the country has spent the past god knows how long bowing down to the loud --and often disturbed-- minority. I still can't stand the Tories and won't be voting for them but cheers for acknowledging the insanity, Rishi.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:22

by the way i am neither labour nor tory.... I'd like to think of myself as balanced centrist. But have basically stepped back from my previously naive belief that labour were 'inherently good' and tories were 'inherently bad'. I no longer think labour will save the day, I think running a country is hugely complex, but THE most important foundation is adherence to the truth, to reality and a seperation from ideology. It's been frightening to see how easily labour have been led down an ideological path and it makes me feel that I cannot trust labour.

BitOutOfPractice · 05/10/2023 23:23

Im going to sleep now. Not scooting off for any other reason. I’ve had a long hard week and i Really have had my fill of this level of conflict and stress to last me more than a lifetime.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 23:27

BitOutOfPractice · 05/10/2023 23:17

And there you prove my point @literalviolence Gender identity is not the only issue affecting women’s rights. It’s not the only issue that women are interested in. And yet when a women says that on mn they are shut down, belittled, name called, the lot. I’d like to talk about education, women’s health, the cost of child care, social care, the gender pay gap, policing, climate change etc etc - the issues that affect millions of women’s lives every day - without being shut down by this “at least he knows…” stuff, every. single. time.

FWIW I mostly agree with a lot of you on this issue. But this mn obsession with it as an issue really is, frankly, odd.

sorry, how did I prove your point?

who said that GI is the only issue affecting women?

what makes you think that a party who doesn't even know what a woman is can meaningfully address those issues which affect women? when you say 'issues that affect women' what will that mean if 'woman' is a meaningless concept?

do you not care what happened to Rosie D?

my first sexual experience was being assaulted by a man in an isolated place. does it seem odd to you that I want to protect others from that?

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:29

I think feminists who still diss the tories and support labour, despite the evidence at hand are within another ideology....

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 23:34

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:42

The single sex ward is a little problematic I think. But a GP and a gyny exam- I think that’s totally fair enough. If someone is inspecting your body, it is entirely understandable that you want them to be familiar/ share that body / have the same embodied experience I think? Trans women have different bodies to (cis) women, that is a fact that no one would dispute xx

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This is remarkable!

We have been told on threads by transitioned male just how transphobic this opinion that male people who have declared they are women have a different body to female people is.

There are some, a growing number, of male people with trans identities who do indeed declare they are female. And have bodies just like female people now with hormones and surgeries.

Do you realise Tandora that you have written something considered deeply transphobic and offensive? And yet you think no one is disputing the ‘fact’ you stated.

OvaHere · 05/10/2023 23:36

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 23:34

This is remarkable!

We have been told on threads by transitioned male just how transphobic this opinion that male people who have declared they are women have a different body to female people is.

There are some, a growing number, of male people with trans identities who do indeed declare they are female. And have bodies just like female people now with hormones and surgeries.

Do you realise Tandora that you have written something considered deeply transphobic and offensive? And yet you think no one is disputing the ‘fact’ you stated.

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I don't think Tandora is coming back tonight having inadvertently walked down a path that only goes in one direction.

Crinklecutchips1 · 05/10/2023 23:39

"We also know that the conservatives have defended womens spaces, womens rights, are proponents of free speech"

I think that the man chucked out of the Tory conference for very quietly heckling Nutella Braverman would disagree on the free speech point.

And you can tell me as many times as you like that the Tories know what a woman is - they might know but they don't care. ALL erosion of women's rights and safe spaces has happened under a Tory watch. They like tell you that they know what a woman is, often with a carry on type smirk, so that you think that cares- they really really don't give a shit. They will say literally anything that they think will win them a few votes.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 23:43

OvaHere · 05/10/2023 23:36

I don't think Tandora is coming back tonight having inadvertently walked down a path that only goes in one direction.

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I am used to tandora leaving threads when it gets challenging. Maybe they will come back. Maybe they won’t.

Tandora · 05/10/2023 23:43

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This is so nasty.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:44

Crinklecutchips1 · 05/10/2023 23:39

"We also know that the conservatives have defended womens spaces, womens rights, are proponents of free speech"

I think that the man chucked out of the Tory conference for very quietly heckling Nutella Braverman would disagree on the free speech point.

And you can tell me as many times as you like that the Tories know what a woman is - they might know but they don't care. ALL erosion of women's rights and safe spaces has happened under a Tory watch. They like tell you that they know what a woman is, often with a carry on type smirk, so that you think that cares- they really really don't give a shit. They will say literally anything that they think will win them a few votes.

Heckling someone and disrupting them mid-speech is not necessarily an acceptable or correct use of free speech. It's disruptive. Luckily that man is free to say what he wants at any other time... thanks to free speech.

Where does your belief come from that the tories are inerently anti-woman? Is it just from the basic premise TORY = BAD? what other evidence do you have?

Tandora · 05/10/2023 23:47

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:51

FYI you're a terf and (other) TRAs will hate you for saying this. All women's bodies are unique don't you know? and if someone has changed sex why should they be discriminated against as health care givers?

many people will dispute what you say. where have you been?

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I’m sure there are trans people and others who would disagree with me here. Im also sure there are plenty who wouldn’t. I’m not afraid of people disagreeing with me.

And no I’m not a fucking TERF, I’m not a radical feminist and I’m not a “gender critical feminist”.

I’m a feminist who cares passionately both about the rights of women and girls and about the rights of trans people. I don’t accept that categories of “male” and “female” are objective and unambiguous biological “truths”. I think both gender and sex are socially and biologically produced. I do think people have different bodies. I think calling trans women “men” and “males” and seeking to exclude trans women from female spaces, depicting trans women as sexual predators, rapists and a threat to women’s and children’s safety is driven by deep seated prejudice and transphobia, and I believe that transphobia is routed in homophobia and , ultimately, misogyny.

HTH,

Messyhair321 · 05/10/2023 23:47

Hersecretserviceyourmaj · 04/10/2023 22:51

If only trans people would leave women alone

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yeah cos obviously they're all out to get us...

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 23:48

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BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:49

'they will say anything to get them a few votes'.... or, they believe that the distinction of men and women and the upholding of the truth of these categorical definitions is vital for our country in law and land? That seems a pretty conservative practice - the needing of boundaried categories and the upholding of pre-existing values...

it's bizarre this comic-book style villainey that people attach to the tories.... but I get it, because I used to do it. But then I think I grew up and my understanding developed and I realised it isn't as simple as good vs evil.....

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 23:51

Tandora · 05/10/2023 23:47

I’m sure there are trans people and others who would disagree with me here. Im also sure there are plenty who wouldn’t. I’m not afraid of people disagreeing with me.

And no I’m not a fucking TERF, I’m not a radical feminist and I’m not a “gender critical feminist”.

I’m a feminist who cares passionately both about the rights of women and girls and about the rights of trans people. I don’t accept that categories of “male” and “female” are objective and unambiguous biological “truths”. I think both gender and sex are socially and biologically produced. I do think people have different bodies. I think calling trans women “men” and “males” and seeking to exclude trans women from female spaces, depicting trans women as sexual predators, rapists and a threat to women’s and children’s safety is driven by deep seated prejudice and transphobia, and I believe that transphobia is routed in homophobia and , ultimately, misogyny.

HTH,

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Well yes. There are some TW who very publicly announce that TW are not W. I am fully behind them and think they need a louder voice. The point is that you would be considered a terf by most of the TRAs for saying things like this.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:52

Yes absolute TERF, excluding men from gynacological appointments. That is the definition of TERF.

Billi80 · 05/10/2023 23:52

BitOutOfPractice · 05/10/2023 23:17

And there you prove my point @literalviolence Gender identity is not the only issue affecting women’s rights. It’s not the only issue that women are interested in. And yet when a women says that on mn they are shut down, belittled, name called, the lot. I’d like to talk about education, women’s health, the cost of child care, social care, the gender pay gap, policing, climate change etc etc - the issues that affect millions of women’s lives every day - without being shut down by this “at least he knows…” stuff, every. single. time.

FWIW I mostly agree with a lot of you on this issue. But this mn obsession with it as an issue really is, frankly, odd.

From what I’ve observed the shutter downers are just a small, vocal and very repetitive minority of 1 to 10 posters. A lot of us would be thrilled to talk about all these other things. Some might also be open to hearing other views, whether or not they agree with them.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 23:53

OvaHere · 05/10/2023 23:36

I don't think Tandora is coming back tonight having inadvertently walked down a path that only goes in one direction.

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we just got the appeals to not be so 'meeeeaaan' which apparently might stand in for evidence, definitions and adult communications.

Billi80 · 05/10/2023 23:54

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 23:43

I am used to tandora leaving threads when it gets challenging. Maybe they will come back. Maybe they won’t.

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FFS. Maybe she just went to make some tea before bravely standing up to a bunch of bullies. This actually reminds me of school. Grow the fuck up.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:55

imagine putting mens feelings above women's health and safety. What a way to live.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 05/10/2023 23:56

Saying “cis women’s bodies have very significant biological differences from trans women’s bodies” is not the same as saying “trans women aren’t women”

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:57

Billi80 · 05/10/2023 23:54

FFS. Maybe she just went to make some tea before bravely standing up to a bunch of bullies. This actually reminds me of school. Grow the fuck up.

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So stunning and brave, on the internet at midnight telling women our safety and dignity is unimportant when facing the sacred feelings of men. Such brave, so wow.

Tandora · 05/10/2023 23:58

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 05/10/2023 23:56

Saying “cis women’s bodies have very significant biological differences from trans women’s bodies” is not the same as saying “trans women aren’t women”

Exactly and I’ve never met a trans person or a trans supporter who would deny this.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:58

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 05/10/2023 23:56

Saying “cis women’s bodies have very significant biological differences from trans women’s bodies” is not the same as saying “trans women aren’t women”

''women's bodies have very significant biological differences from men's bodies''

I fixed it for you.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 23:59

trans women aren't women though, are they, otherwise they wouldnt be called 'transwomen'. it would just be 'women'....