Rishi Sunak - "a man is a man, a woman is a woman"

[Ellos]

..and how we shouldn't be bullied into believing somebody can be any sex that they want.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh/

AIBU to want to give him a round of applause?

I know, it's convenient timing and obviously a strategy move but how good is it to hear that straight from the horses mouth when the country has spent the past god knows how long bowing down to the loud and often disturbed minority.

I still can't stand the Tories and won't be voting for them but cheers for acknowledging the insanity, Rishi.

I remember that this poster once declared that women posting about concerns about affirming only medical treatment were only coming from a place of ignorance and not knowledge and then couldn’t evidence their claims that trans people were more marginalised than any other group in the UK.

Well they plonked down study links and then fucked off the thread when we tried to discuss with Tandora why Tandora posted the studies and what they actually meant.

I mean, maybe Tandora has more evidence now. Maybe they stopped calling feminists on MN ‘ignorant’ when it was they who were shown to lack knowledge about the claims they made. Let’s see what happens on this thread though. It has been months. But I don’t hold much hope considering the claims and discussion I have seen about differences of sex development.

Agreed Op. kind of like it kind of gives the green card for gc people to be more open about their stance?

I've counted:

I have asked generally on this thread 11 times and specifically to @Tandora 5 times questions about why -

Women's boundaries and safety, in the light of the fact that trans women are known to have attacked women in single sex spaces (NHS single sex hospital - TW raped a woman and Karen White sexually assaulted women in a women's prisons - were the 2 specific examples) are considered less important than the wishes of trans women (males) to be in women's spaces.

These questions have been ignored.

The only response I have had from @Tandora on this important point is a gaslighting response which says that the risk to women of trans women in our spaces is-

That’s not clear at all. What is clear is that banning trans women from women’s spaces harms trans women (and trans people at large).

I find this incredible.

What @Tandora is saying is that they don't care about risk to women. What matters is trans women (the males).

Stop being told to know your place ladies. Ask questions about why our politicians are putting the wishes of a subset of males above the safety and dignity of women. We matter. We exist. We are not the same as trans women. It is not our job to keep males safe.

I whole heartedly disagree.

Gender ideology has crept into all major democracies - ireland, spain, france, gernamy, finlans, USA, AUS, NZ just to name a few. The proponents have used the same tactics of stealth and confusion to lay the groundwork.

If you compare the UK to the previously mentioned countries... well we're dping pretty good at pushing back against this madness, and actually I think there have been some great Tory Mps and Lords that have been a huge part in that.

IMAGINE IF WE HAD HAD A LABOUR GOVERNMENT THE PAST TEN YEARS?! where in the fuck would we be now? self-ID and hate crime laws? We would 100% be in a worse position than we are now.

Tandora is not really answering any questions. They are not engaging in any meaningful way. These sort of threads are great for lurkers as the complete refusal to answer simple questions, the hyperbole and the bigotry towards women speak volumes about the foundations of the trans people and their allies.

I used to only vote labour but now I would be absolutely gutted if labour get in. I would be extremely worried about the erosion of women's rights. I feel much more confident about this under a tory government.

And also I am startin to see the poisinous hatred that exists in the left.... the anger and the demanding...... and the rudeness. Refering to people as 'the lowest common denominators'?! Yuck, I don't want to be lumped in with people that have their head so far up their own arse!

Completely agree @BlurredEdges

Sorry meant @BlessedKali

i imagine it is too much to process at once. it would take a heroic amount of humility to acknowlege you are so fundamentally wrong about this. I imagine these points will be whirrig around in Tandora's mind, to be digested.... the slow terf-ing otherwise known as 'coming to one's senses'

You can caps lock at me all you like @BlessedKali . I still think that a Labour government would have better addressed the issues that matter to women’s lives on a daily basis.

I realise it’s verboten to say that on mn but I am really tired of every single political thread being shut down by the “at least he knows…” rhetoric that seems to be allowed to eclipse every debate that women want to have here.

It’s extraordinarily tiresome and stopping a lot of women who aren’t part of that particular cabal from expressing an opinion on any political matter whatsoever. Because whenever a woman opens her mouth here the “at least he knows…” shouting shuts her up. Or tries to anyway.

no matter what the “at least he knows…” proclaimers would have us believe on mn, there are many many more issues that are vitally pertinent to women’s rights and lives and they Deserve an airing without being shut down.

the labour government have passed all over Rosie Dufield so not sure why you think they'd look after less important women. plus they supported self ID which no supporter of women would do.

And no, I don’t care what names you want to call me 🤷‍♀️

What I find striking is how someone repeats that all the women on here are 'transphobic' and then comes out with:

' If someone is inspecting your body, it is entirely understandable that you want them to be familiar/ share that body / have the same embodied experience I think? Trans women have different bodies to (cis) women, thatis a fact that no one would dispute xx'

The Scottish government spent a tense couple of days debating whether rape victims were entitled to ask for a female bodied examiner. Thankfully, they won that right, but the SNP and Greens were enraged at the idea.

And 'trans women have different bodies to (cis) women' is just basic terfing.

Finding yourself can be such a revelation, lol.

im certainly not going to call you a 'lowest denominator' in case you were worried

The irony.

yep. the clearest example of 'transphobia' in the whole thread!

Ok, so we have actual evidence, and we categorically know that labour was pro-self if, that labour has been bullying women who stand up for women's rights, and that labours line was that some women have a penis.

We also know that the conservatives have defended womens spaces, womens rights, are proponents of free speech.

So you would preferred a labour government based on an unsubstantiated hope that they would somehow have made the lives of women better. Based on what evidence?

I prefer to go with reality and evidence than magical thinking.

I do wish all of this tribal/ political stuff would stop though. All sides of the political debate need to join together in agreement that women matter and exist.

We are where we are. There is no point really in looking at who is to blame or who would have been worse.

We do need to put our politicians to task on this though but women fighting women as to whether the left or right is better or worse is pointless to me. This should not be a party political issue.

Whichever party ends up leading needs to understand that this is not something that women are prepared to give up on . We exist.

And there you prove my point @literalviolence Gender identity is not the only issue affecting women’s rights. It’s not the only issue that women are interested in. And yet when a women says that on mn they are shut down, belittled, name called, the lot. I’d like to talk about education, women’s health, the cost of child care, social care, the gender pay gap, policing, climate change etc etc - the issues that affect millions of women’s lives every day - without being shut down by this “at least he knows…” stuff, every. single. time.

FWIW I mostly agree with a lot of you on this issue. But this mn obsession with it as an issue really is, frankly, odd.

this is the sex and gender board. clues in the name.

Well a fully trans supportive poster yesterday on the middle ground thread just finished declared that it was acceptable if up to 100 girls and women were sexually abused in toilets per year by transitioned males and that this would have established as a trend before they thought society could consider banning all male people from female single sex spaces.

I wonder have we had an answer to what is n here on this thread yet? How many girls and women are accepted collateral to be harmed before strong safeguarding measures are put in place that exclude all male people from single sex spaces ?

I've read a lot of the political threads in AIBU and Chat and have noted more often than not that gets kicked off by a handful of anti Tory posters who like to post 'at least he knows what a woman is' multiple times as sarcasm. A lot of people then don't recognise the troll and it all starts up.

I agree it's annoying on political threads about other topics but some of the worst offenders for it on the main boards are not pro Tory or gender critical posters.

Did you realise there is another feminist board that is not for sex and gender discussions?

It is called feminist chat. This board was hived off specifically for sex and gender discussions.