Page 31 | Rishi Sunak - "a man is a man, a woman is a woman"

Ellos · 2023-10-04T20:44:22+00:00

..and how we shouldn't be bullied into believing somebody can be any sex that they want. [[https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh/]] AIBU to want to give him a round of applause? I know, it's convenient timing and obviously a strategy move but how good is it to hear that straight from the horses mouth when the country has spent the past god knows how long bowing down to the loud --and often disturbed-- minority. I still can't stand the Tories and won't be voting for them but cheers for acknowledging the insanity, Rishi.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:06

What I want to know is how do so many young people not understand basic biology?

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:07

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 21:58

That they have been bullied and victimised is not acceptable. They can identify how they wish, however scientifically they are the sex their condition relates to. Their wishes do not change material reality.

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however scientifically they are the sex their condition relates to. Their wishes do not change material reality

says who 🥴 your preferred evolutionary biologist quoted up thread? The point is that these things are not definitive, they are highly anmbiguous annd contested. There are a range of valid opinions.

The fact is that individuals with such conditions do often have visibly sexually ambiguous bodies, hence the discrimination and bullying,

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 22:08

BlurredEdges · 05/10/2023 22:06

It's funny how @Tandora, despite devoting so many hours to this thread, managed to miss both your and my accounts of our first-hand experience with sexually threatening men, innit.

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to you both.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:09

another thing I am amazed at - is how aparantly outraged young people are about 'discrimination and bullying' yet do not bat an eyelid at sexual assault and rape.

To offend someone's feelz - HELL NO.

To risk putting women in situations where they could be sexually assulted - No problem.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:09

Tandora · 05/10/2023 20:47

No exceptions except for…

🤦🏼‍♀️ are you listening to yourself.

You have offered a prevalence stat of 0.015% people being “ intersex”. This is hotly disputed, it entirely depends on how you define “intersex”. Many intersex groups argue the prevalence is more like 1%. Even if you stick to 0.015%, that’s still 10s of millions of humans!! And these are just the sex variations that we can observe with current medical technologies.

This latter point , I think , is importnat. People keep saying that having a variation in sex characteristics is not the same as being trans, I agree these are different groups. But what these groups have in common is that neither group fit binary, social or scientific understanding of sex/ gender. On this thread, people have repeatedly justified their disbelief in trans experience, based on an absolutist belief in binary , biological sex as an unambiguous “fact”.
We do not understand the aetiology of transgender development, but given what we know about trans experience, it is highly likely that biology does play a role and there are some studies that have indicated a role for both genetics and hormones. For all these reasons discussing variability and ambiguity in sex development is highly relevant to a conversation about trans inclusion,

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you're muddling things up. TW fit the sex binary very well. they're male. gender is different from sex.

please give evidence that biology plays a role in someone being trans. please give evidence for genetic influences.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2023 22:10

Oh, we are talking about stigma. Great.

It's hurtful to be called 'insane', but I do not think it should be shameful to discuss sexual assault and mental health issues.

Especially not on a feminist board on a website for mothers.

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:11

Just a reminder all that this person posting is very childlike in their responses. You may well be arguing online with a 16 year old.

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:12

BlurredEdges · 05/10/2023 21:56

Your 'engagement' with statistics was to try to say (for some inexplicable reason) that statistics which show the percentage of each of the following populations - men, women, men who identify as women - that are currently incarcerated as sex offenders are 'misleading'. They are figures from the Ministry of Justice. They are up to date, and accurate.

They demonstrate that men who identify as women are not only hundreds of times more likely than women to be convicted and jailed for sex offences, but also significantly more likely to be convicted and jailed for sex offences than men who do not identify as women.

There is ample evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, that men claiming to be women pose a threat to women and girls. There is even more evidence that men, regardless of their gender identity, pose a threat to women and girls. There is no benefit or value whatsoever for women and girls in allowing males into female spaces. There can only be harm.

I wholeheartedly reject the idea that trans women as a group pose a threat to women and girls, this is pure transphobia.

You can 'wholeheartedly reject' whatever you want. Perhaps I 'wholeheartedly reject' the idea that the Earth is (approximately) a sphere. Perhaps I 'wholeheartedly reject' the idea that today is 5th October, 2023. Perhaps I wholeheartedly reject that I am 42 years old. It doesn't make any difference to reality though, does it?

FYI, throwing around the word 'transphobia' in an attempt to shut down women's voices doesn't work anymore.

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i said they were misleading in the sense that they wete being used as evidence to suggest that trans women at large are disproportionately likely to be sexual offenders. ( And you well know this, so your feigned confusion is disingenuous to say the least)

im not throwing around the word transphobia to shut down women, im calling transphobia, transphobia, as rightly one should.

Insommmmnia · 05/10/2023 22:12

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2023 22:10

Oh, we are talking about stigma. Great.

It's hurtful to be called 'insane', but I do not think it should be shameful to discuss sexual assault and mental health issues.

Especially not on a feminist board on a website for mothers.

It's impressive how a poster like @Tandora can use disabled people at great length to illustrate her points about trans people, but still falls back on ableist insults when she needs to

Almost like she doesn't care about those of us who are actually disabled unless she can use us to prove her point

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:13

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:07

however scientifically they are the sex their condition relates to. Their wishes do not change material reality

says who 🥴 your preferred evolutionary biologist quoted up thread? The point is that these things are not definitive, they are highly anmbiguous annd contested. There are a range of valid opinions.

The fact is that individuals with such conditions do often have visibly sexually ambiguous bodies, hence the discrimination and bullying,

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no they don't. TM look like women who've taken hormones. TW look like men. Most TW don't have any surgery or take hormones so they look like every other male.

please evidence discrimination and bullying. saying they're not women doesn't count because it's neither discrimination or bullying. single cases don't count for obvious reasons.

RealityFan · 05/10/2023 22:13

Tandora · 05/10/2023 21:25

0.015% may equate to millions, but it absolutely does not give any credence to anything beyond the sex binary

what an utterly bizarre thing to try to claim .

this is an aberration not variation

an aberration is just a variation with a negative spin/ value judgement placed on top of it. No idea why you are so committed to being nasty in your use of language. It’s pure ableism.

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Because you're claiming that 0.015% is a variation that predicates there are variations all over the place, the legendary gender spectrum.
0.015% intersex here, 0.2% DSD there, 0.5%-3% trans/NB (as Stonewall claims) here, 5%+ queer there. That suits your ideological and unscientific viewpoint.
I'm saying 0.015% is an aberration, because just like saying there's a 0.015% chance of a coin landing on it's edge when flipped, we don't say 49.9925% heads : 49.9925% tails : 0.015% edge.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:15

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:12

i said they were misleading in the sense that they wete being used as evidence to suggest that trans women at large are disproportionately likely to be sexual offenders. ( And you well know this, so your feigned confusion is disingenuous to say the least)

im not throwing around the word transphobia to shut down women, im calling transphobia, transphobia, as rightly one should.

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evidence. give us evidence. your ramblings are boring and convincing no one. if you think the stats are misleading give evidence. I will listen to evidence in a way I won't listen to a naive and uncaring privileged person.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 22:15

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:07

however scientifically they are the sex their condition relates to. Their wishes do not change material reality

says who 🥴 your preferred evolutionary biologist quoted up thread? The point is that these things are not definitive, they are highly anmbiguous annd contested. There are a range of valid opinions.

The fact is that individuals with such conditions do often have visibly sexually ambiguous bodies, hence the discrimination and bullying,

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Shall I find the multitude of others that also agree with him. The doctors and the developmental biologists as well?

I agree that people should not be bullied and victimised.

It is you who is trying to argue that these conditions are highly ambiguous in this era of medical technology. While I agree that people who have these conditions may have external features that are ‘ambiguous’, their sex as defined by science is not ambiguous. They will have a condition that belongs to medically known groups and very often those conditions will only ever affect one sex.

Even if it affects both sexes, those bodies can be categorised into one sex or another. Your claims that this is highly ambiguous is false. Contested, sure. Contesting something does not impact on the material reality of what is known and established.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:17

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:11

Just a reminder all that this person posting is very childlike in their responses. You may well be arguing online with a 16 year old.

I expect you're right but that child needs to reflect on the position they're putting people in and that chils needs to grow up before the real world gives them a harsh awakening.

OvaHere · 05/10/2023 22:17

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:12

i said they were misleading in the sense that they wete being used as evidence to suggest that trans women at large are disproportionately likely to be sexual offenders. ( And you well know this, so your feigned confusion is disingenuous to say the least)

im not throwing around the word transphobia to shut down women, im calling transphobia, transphobia, as rightly one should.

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Until you can bring yourself to admit that people who call themselves trans women are male I'm not the slightest bit interested in your accusations of transphobia.

You are the one coming into this thread with a starting point that is a lie not the rest of us.

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:18

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:15

evidence. give us evidence. your ramblings are boring and convincing no one. if you think the stats are misleading give evidence. I will listen to evidence in a way I won't listen to a naive and uncaring privileged person.

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The transphobia is evidence of itself. If you find me “boring” and “rambling” there’s really no need to reply.

RealityFan · 05/10/2023 22:19

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:11

Just a reminder all that this person posting is very childlike in their responses. You may well be arguing online with a 16 year old.

What I love about MN is that we're prepared to argue with trans, women's futures literally depend on it.

But will trans argue with us on public fora, trans Reddit etc? Not on your life!

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:19

RealityFan · 05/10/2023 22:13

Because you're claiming that 0.015% is a variation that predicates there are variations all over the place, the legendary gender spectrum.
0.015% intersex here, 0.2% DSD there, 0.5%-3% trans/NB (as Stonewall claims) here, 5%+ queer there. That suits your ideological and unscientific viewpoint.
I'm saying 0.015% is an aberration, because just like saying there's a 0.015% chance of a coin landing on it's edge when flipped, we don't say 49.9925% heads : 49.9925% tails : 0.015% edge.

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Because you're claiming that 0.015% is a variation that predicates there are variations all over the place

no I’m not. I accept that these variations are in the (overwhelming) minority. Although I do think we will observe more as scientific technologies as well as cultural and social processes evolve.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2023 22:20

BlessedKali · 05/10/2023 22:11

Just a reminder all that this person posting is very childlike in their responses. You may well be arguing online with a 16 year old.

It's funny, Kali, I just typed out a whole long spiel about just that.

If a poster's responses seem heartless, perhaps they are just callow. And I sincerely wish them a lifetime of never gaining the understandings that many older women base their risk assessments on.

Be young, and careless, and go well.

PomRuns · 05/10/2023 22:20

This poster reminds me of someone I work with.
We don’t engage anymore with discussions like this - she’s like a sulky teenager.

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:22

Helleofabore · 05/10/2023 22:15

Shall I find the multitude of others that also agree with him. The doctors and the developmental biologists as well?

I agree that people should not be bullied and victimised.

It is you who is trying to argue that these conditions are highly ambiguous in this era of medical technology. While I agree that people who have these conditions may have external features that are ‘ambiguous’, their sex as defined by science is not ambiguous. They will have a condition that belongs to medically known groups and very often those conditions will only ever affect one sex.

Even if it affects both sexes, those bodies can be categorised into one sex or another. Your claims that this is highly ambiguous is false. Contested, sure. Contesting something does not impact on the material reality of what is known and established.

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My claim is simply that you can protest “material reality of what is known and established” all you like, but there is no scientific consensus on which to base your protestations.

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:22

Tandora · 05/10/2023 21:52

Do you know any one with LOCAH or Klinefelter’s ? I do and neither individuals consider their bodies to fit binary sex classifications. Both have experienced intense bullying, othering, victimisation throughout their lives because of their visible gender/ sex ambiguity and both self define as both non binary and intersex.

As I said these things are contested, and ambiguous. But what we can all agree on is the fact that millions of people with sex variations exist across the world and continue to be born everyday.

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how is this relevant? I believe they've experienced bullying. that happens to people with all physical differences. Life is full of people who can't see beyond their nose. As you keep demonstrating. How does this show that a man can become a woman?

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:24

Tandora · 05/10/2023 22:22

My claim is simply that you can protest “material reality of what is known and established” all you like, but there is no scientific consensus on which to base your protestations.

Edited

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oh stop it. you're just humiliating yourself. We are a sexually dimorphic species. Do you know how babies are made?

OvaHere · 05/10/2023 22:24

literalviolence · 05/10/2023 22:22

how is this relevant? I believe they've experienced bullying. that happens to people with all physical differences. Life is full of people who can't see beyond their nose. As you keep demonstrating. How does this show that a man can become a woman?

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Don't expect an answer. I've asked this numerous times.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2023 22:24

In a minute I'm going to go back and count how many times I have asked @Tandora the same 2 questions and how many times they have been ignored.

It is interesting the questions that @Tandora chooses to ignore. They are the one's about evidenced harm to women.