Rishi Sunak - "a man is a man, a woman is a woman"

[Ellos]

..and how we shouldn't be bullied into believing somebody can be any sex that they want.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh/

AIBU to want to give him a round of applause?

I know, it's convenient timing and obviously a strategy move but how good is it to hear that straight from the horses mouth when the country has spent the past god knows how long bowing down to the loud and often disturbed minority.

I still can't stand the Tories and won't be voting for them but cheers for acknowledging the insanity, Rishi.

You agreed up thread that people with disorders are a different group to people who identify as trans so I stand by my opinion you are weaponising those people for self serving reasons.

All the conversations in the world won't magically turn a man into a women.

Pretending that people can change sex is a distorted fantasy.

0.015% may equate to millions, but it absolutely does not give any credence to anything beyond the sex binary

what an utterly bizarre thing to try to claim .

this is an aberration not variation

an aberration is just a variation with a negative spin/ value judgement placed on top of it. No idea why you are so committed to being nasty in your use of language. It’s pure ableism.

i will go back to my original point that if it’s no more than my fantasy then there is really nothing for you to be worried about

Are you denying those rapists and sexual predators the right to define their own gender identity?

Are you claiming that you know better than they do what gender they really are?

Are you saying that some people say they are transgender, but that this is a lie?

How do you tell which people are lying?

Thanks!

It's a well used scientific term not a judgement.

so I stand by my opinion you are weaponising those people for self serving reasons

you can stand by it all you want, but it’s an entirely unfounded and unreasonable accusation for all the many reasons already stated.

There have been many, many statistics, case histories, and first-hand experiences posted on this thread that show very clearly that it is something to be worried about.

You have not, once, for one moment, engaged with any of the evidence of trans-identifying males using the privileges granted by their transgender status to abuse, assault and rape women. Why?

You seem to revel in the fact that women and girls are placed at risk by the exercise of power by men. Why?

You seem to find rape, sexual assault, and invasion of privacy a joke. Why?

You seem to treat women who object to all of these as enemies, targets, and jokes. Why?

I'm not disputing that you are in fact a woman, if you say you are. This is the internet and I have no way of proving it either way. But if you are, I wonder why it is that you are choosing to invest so much energy in fighting for the rights of males over and above the rights of females.

You perhaps have framed this in your mind as defending the rights of a marginalised group, and yourself as a champion of the dispossessed. You're not. You're doing the work of the oppressors for them. You don't have to do this. You could step back and reconsider it.

“Disorders of sex development” is also a well used scientific term, it’s also a value judgement and stigmatising. One is not mutually incompatible with the other.

Regardless of what you call it, aberration, variation, disorder, it amounts to the same thing- a difference that exists whether you care to like it or not,

I would like to also point out (as a Jewish woman, most of whose extended family were murdered in the Holocaust) that the idea that Jews are an evil race of conspiratorial rat-like creatures who run the world is also a fantasy, and has no basis in truth. But that doesn't mean that we have no reason to be scared by it, or by the people who believe in it, or to fight back against it.

Fantasies shared by powerful people have left a lot of people dead over the centuries. Just because something's a lie doesn't mean it can't cause a lot of damage.

If gender identity is the sex you identify with, then there's no point arguing about whether people can change sex or not. Some people identify with the other sex - for whatever reasons they feel that's what they are and they can't change it. It would be better to think about ways everyone can be comfortable. I think @Tandora should accept some women need single sex spaces such as toilets to be female only. It's expensive, but we should try to build more single, gender neutral facilities that are safe and secure.

There is no third sex.

However, third spaces seem to be a solution that would satisfy everyone. So long as single sex spaces are maintained and language is clear, I can't see how anyone could reasonably object to additive third 'gender neutral' spaces.

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/intersex-is-not-as-common-as-red

Maybe this will help. I believe the figure reality is referring to is 0.018%.

The higher figure is false and fed by Fausto -Sterling of the joke (her admission) five sexes theory. It includes people with unambiguous sex categorisation as reality said.

I'm well aware it's a difference that exists. What I dispute is that it has anything to do with men who are male in every conceivable sense of the word who choose to call themselves women.

There have been many, many statistics, case histories, and first-hand experiences posted on this thread that show very clearly that it is something to be worried about

there have been statistics that have been misleadingly and manipulatively used to promote transphobia. I have engaged with this.
I can’t say much about “case studies” and “personal histories”. I have acknowledged that there are inevitably some trans people who are abusers, predators, criminals, bad people, just like there are of all types and groups of people. I wholeheartedly reject the idea that trans women as a group pose a threat to women and girls, this is pure transphobia.

You seem to revel in the fact that women and girls are placed at risk by the exercise of power by men. Why?

um no.

You seem to find rape, sexual assault, and invasion of privacy a joke. Why?

Not sure how many times you want to accuse me of this and I can refute it 🤷🏼‍♀️. The thread is there for all to read.

You seem to treat women who object to all of these as enemies, targets, and jokes. Why?

this so manipulative. The targeting, othering, rudeness and name calling has been almost entirely in one direction and it hasn’t come from me.

@ArabellaScott I think it's the best solution. I'd use a third space, as long as it's safe and private. The trouble is the cost, perhaps.

It’s not just Fausto sterling who argues this. The fact is that prevalence stats are disputed, highly dependent on definitions (obviously) and what we can observe with current medical technologies. Either way it doesn’t really matter,

Ok good, glad we agree on the first point 👍🏻

@BlurredEdges in answer to your questions, as I don’t know how to quote without the entire thread appearing, I simply do not have an answer. This is not just because the questions are contorted to serve your argument, but also because I personally don’t don’t think anyone really has yet. There isn’t enough evidence to support either argument, hence a culture war ripe for exploitation for political gain. Much like there wasn’t evidence to support that gays weren’t perverts and Jews, like us, weren’t parasites.

I see the idea of telling people that they can change sex by taking pills and doing surgery the same as telling a person with an eating disorder that they would be happier if they lost a few pounds.

It's unethical. It's never going to make them fully happy. It's literally a fantasy.

The fantasy is harmful though. Mostly to women. Women in hospitals, refuges, changing rooms. It's harmful to women's sports and women in the arts.

Honestly I can’t ❤️❤️ this post enough. It’s so refreshing to hear from someone who isn’t entirely embedded in the arguments of one camp or other and is interested in engaging with different sides. Lord
knows we need more of this right now. You are a gem.

From the article I posted.

Here we can see that the large majority (88 percent) of Fausto-Sterling’s 1.7 percent figure is taken up by one condition: late-onset adrenal hyperplasia (LOCAH). These individuals have completely normal male or female genitalia at birth that align with their sex chromosomes. The sex of these individuals is not ambiguous, so to label LOCAH as an intersex condition is a far cry from what most people and clinicians conceptually envision the term to capture.

The next most prevalent DSD on Fausto-Sterling’s list include any chromosomal deviations from classical XX and XY (e.g. Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, etc.). However, these conditions do not result in ambiguous genitalia and therefore cannot be considered intersex in any clinically relevant sense. (see my previous post about why sex chromosome variants are not their own unique sexes.)
Lastly, vaginal agenesis, the next most common DSD on the list, is not generally considered an intersex condition, as girls with this condition are genotypically XX, possess perfectly normal ovaries, and can become pregnant and birth their own children following vaginoplasty. They are unambiguously female.

When these common DSDs are removed, and intersex conditions are more precisely defined as “conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female,”Fausto-Sterling’s 1.7 percent figure drops dramatically. According to Sax, “Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling's estimate of 1.7%.”

The article* *was written by an evolutionary biologist.

this so manipulative. The targeting, othering, rudeness and name calling has been almost entirely in one direction and it hasn’t come from me.

Oh please. You're only here because you want us all to shut up and kneel at the alter of men's feelings.

As for manipulative perhaps you should refer back to your own post upthread professing to be weeping because women keep stating they have boundaries around men in their spaces.

If no one can accurately answer these questions:

• Are you denying those rapists and sexual predators the right to define their own gender identity?

• Are you claiming that you know better than they do what gender they really are?

• Are you saying that some people say they are transgender, but that this is a lie?

• How do you tell which people are lying?

On what basis do you allow some male people into spaces which are designated women-only?

And no - my questions are not 'contorted to serve your [my] argument'. They are really fundamental questions which anyone who is confidently asserting that we should throw away all the protections for women and girls should be able to answer.

They are very simple, straightforward questions.

You literally said my experience of sexual assault was a 'sick fantasy'.

Perhaps that's not 'rude', strictly speaking. I'm not quite sure what I'd call it.