Rishi Sunak - "a man is a man, a woman is a woman"

[Ellos]

..and how we shouldn't be bullied into believing somebody can be any sex that they want.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJcxUehh/

AIBU to want to give him a round of applause?

I know, it's convenient timing and obviously a strategy move but how good is it to hear that straight from the horses mouth when the country has spent the past god knows how long bowing down to the loud and often disturbed minority.

I still can't stand the Tories and won't be voting for them but cheers for acknowledging the insanity, Rishi.

These views are only privileged because so many in society who know better, know the truth, stay quiet, and throw the game.

I'm not completely for or against either side of this argument as I feel both sides have gone a bit crazy with it on this thread.

However this is a ridiculous post and shows how ignorant you are about trans people.

Tempted as I am to reply with just the laughing emoji, I’ll bite.

Female toilets that welcome transwomen are mixed sex. This is exclusionary to a large number of women, as I said in my original post. People using these are sharing toilets with men, something you don’t like either.

Female toilets welcome transmen, and are still single sex. They are not trans exclusionary.

Male toilets welcome transwomen and are still single sex. They are not trans exclusionary.

A third space which can be used by anybody would be mixed sex, but at least the people using it have made a choice that they are ok with that. At the moment , with the current state of play at large, women are given no choice of a single sex toilet.

I'm so bored of the 'it's complicated' brigades. This debate has been going on for years. Take the funking time to come up with some actual funking definitions you're willing to defend rather than filling pages with hyperbolistic shit and variations on 'it's a complicated interplay...' stupidity. Jesus how will the next generation ever procreate if they fail to understand where a speem and an egg come from. Mind you that might explain the headlines which are effectively making a big deal of the fact that a biological woman got pregnant after having sex with a biological man.

the disorders mentioned are genetic. that doesn't challenge the fact that genetics determines sex.

No exceptions except for…

🤦🏼‍♀️ are you listening to yourself.

You have offered a prevalence stat of 0.015% people being “ intersex”. This is hotly disputed, it entirely depends on how you define “intersex”. Many intersex groups argue the prevalence is more like 1%. Even if you stick to 0.015%, that’s still 10s of millions of humans!! And these are just the sex variations that we can observe with current medical technologies.

This latter point , I think , is importnat. People keep saying that having a variation in sex characteristics is not the same as being trans, I agree these are different groups. But what these groups have in common is that neither group fit binary, social or scientific understanding of sex/ gender. On this thread, people have repeatedly justified their disbelief in trans experience, based on an absolutist belief in binary , biological sex as an unambiguous “fact”.
We do not understand the aetiology of transgender development, but given what we know about trans experience, it is highly likely that biology does play a role and there are some studies that have indicated a role for both genetics and hormones. For all these reasons discussing variability and ambiguity in sex development is highly relevant to a conversation about trans inclusion,

anyone who can't see why some women don't want men in their spaces is privileged.

@ketchup07070 @AdamRyan @Timmytap18

I admit my description was an extreme example which is not the norm for most transwomen who are just getting on with their day to day life.
I guess the transwomen that have stuck in my head have been the one's I described, Eddie Izzard etc.
I just feel a burning anger and betrayal too at the hideous portrayal of women by many drag artists since I was a teen in Brighton and also the 'dress in pink, wear nail varnish - of course I'm a woman' jailed transwomen that have appeared in the news in the last few years.

It's not relevant at all. Stop using these people as a weapon in your war on women.

Has Keir Starmer been asked about this yet? Looking forward to more Labour waffle.

Actually, as per my post above, based on Ministry of Justice data, men who identify as women are about 5 times more likely to be incarcerated sex offenders, compared to men who don't identify as women.

And 639 times more likely to be incarcerated sex offenders compared to women.

So - while I broadly speaking agree with you - a man who's calling himself a woman is in fact more likely to be a sex offender than a man who identifies himself as a man.

And in any case - I don't want ANY of them in women's single-sex spaces.

Trans-identifying females - no problem at all. There is no 'trans exclusion' here. It's 'male exclusion'.

I don't give a fuck what any male thinks women should or should not be doing in the name of feminism. That's kind of the starting point.

I’m not weaponising anyone, nor am I waging a “war on women”. I’m a woman and a feminist. A conversation about sex diversity is 100%relevant to a conversation about gender diversity. In fact, one cannot be had without the other, which is why people on this thread cannot justify their transphobia without appealing to binary, biological sex.

So you are not objecting to the thesis per se, rather your objection is that Serrano is trans and therefore you “don’t give a fuck” what she thinks?

I've seen your weeping emojis for hypothetical sad males. And your complete callous disregard and laughing emojis when women here raise women's issues like infertility and sexual assault.

No. I don't object because Serrano is 'trans'.

I see it too. Women being sexually assaulted or being infertile is funny. Men being asked to leave women's toilets because they're men is very very very sad. /s

You see nothing but your own sick and distorted fantasies.

It's funny how for all the righteous waffle about 'gender' some people still respond so very differently to women than they do to males.

Oh good lord don’t you start with the manipulative tactics. I have and would never laugh at infertility or sexual assault.
And I do not weep for men; I weep about transphobia.

That's the second time you've responded to a reference of sexual assault as 'fantasy'.

If you think it's any higher than 0.015%, then you've been reading too much Stonewall or Mermaids literature.

0.015% may equate to millions, but it absolutely does not give any credence to anything beyond the sex binary. This is an aberration not a variation.

And even if you're being as sympathetic as possible, doesn't in any way point to gender identity as anything except feelings and dysphoria.

Still no third gamete, just like there's still no Loch Ness. Or ghosts. Or little green men.

I’m guessing their definition of feminist is as made up as their definition of sex.
Actually have we had their definition of sex yet or just been repeatedly told that ours is wrong?

recognising that a man can't become a woman is not transphobia.

I don’t know about other people but I for one am finding your arguments very interesting and insightful @Tandora. And I find many of the GC arguments equally interesting and insightful but am appreciating a fresh perspective on Mumsnet. May it continue. And having met TRAs, you don’t strike me as one @Tandora, just as someone who holds the very popular view that sex probably isn’t binary, given the evidence trans people existing presents. That doesn’t mean however that rapists and sexual predators do not mimic trans women.