Page 10 | Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was Tory the party leader and the election was tomorrow?

lechiffre55 · 2023-10-03T12:39:21+00:00

Just curious to see what the answers here might be. Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was the Tory party leader and the election was tomorrow? Feel free to answer any way you like, and I don't care about derailing. The question is quite tongue in cheek, don't take it too seriously, and have fun with it if you want, rant if you want. I'm trying to get a picture of the MN mood.

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/10/2023 18:04

lechiffre55 · 03/10/2023 17:43

The first word stands for European.

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Jesus wept.

Lonelycrab · 03/10/2023 18:05

@bombastix 17.52 absolutely agree.

Ironic that a party called the conservatives actually seem to want to tear it all down and conserve nothing.

VeronicaSawyer89 · 03/10/2023 18:05

Absolutely not! I'd rather cut off my own arm than vote Tory!

SaffronSpice · 03/10/2023 18:06

Spinet · 03/10/2023 17:43

Do I think this set of Tories would find a way to ensure the UK court ruled in their favour? Yes. Yes I do. So I think that we do need the ECHR as our constitution has never been formalised and depended on the decency of British government and their 'checks and balances'. This Tory government and its immediate predecessors have killed the idea of British decency and stomped on its limped corpse. So no I will never vote for them nor trust them again.

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.You would rather an unelected supranational body had the final say rather than a democratically elected government who can be elected out?

Rudderneck · 03/10/2023 18:08

SaffronSpice · 03/10/2023 16:57

‘All this’ being what?

Gender stuff was set in train by Labour with the GRA and gender reassignment in the EA. Yes it is bad now but there is push back by Tories - compare that to the Scot/Green for in Scotland, or Canada. It is bad but under labour would have been, and will be, far worse. Equality? There can be no equality for women if ‘women’ means nothing.

Covid was not the Tories fault. I don’t think they handled it particularly well but I don’t believe labour would have handled it better or left us with less debt.

Austerity (aka trying to balance the books) came on the back an economic crash at the end of Labours time in power. If labour had stayed in power longer they would not have been able to continue spending as they had. Though the NHS have continued to pay back £80bn of PFI loans whilst the Tories have been in power to repay the £13bn loan Labour invested whilst they were in power. The cost of living crisis is not unique to the uk; post covid debt and fuel increases as a result of the Ukraine war,

Immigration was set in train by labour but has got worse under Tories. I think we do need to protect our borders and return economic migrants and think we may need to leave ECHR, though I am in two minds about that. This will be worse under labour as too many open border zealots. Forget about protecting the countryside (and food production) whilst the population spirals.

Brexit has been handled badly but mustn’t be undone. I am for freer trade but think we might be better waiting a while now for things to settle.

I am also normally a swing voter and if it wasn’t for gender and immigration I would have voted Labour as it is time for change. The Tories are tired and policies need to regress to the mean. No chance at the moment. But my bigger concern is the silent left-wing coup that has taken over the civil service. I think the Tories are being hobbled by that and I fear what extremes they will go to with labour in charge.

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This is very much what I think. There is no party that is all shiny in terms of performance. And to a large degree, any party in power will be working with the same limited options. The fact that Labour funded the NHS by screwing taxpayers of the future over is far too often overlooked.

That being said, a change in administration can be good in itself.

But as it stands now, if Labour gets in the problems in the civil service, and with getting locked into all kinds of stupid regulations and agreements, are not going to be addressed, they may well become more entrenched. These are serious issues that risk the whole system of government. I also agree that Labour doesn't seem to have the stomach to come up with solutions to immigration. (Not sure the either party has the brains or creativity, alas. But it will also take some hard self-discipline.) I worry too about Labour's stupid environmental plans, which will not help. They mostly function to look like they are taking action.

Kemi seems smart and also has integrity, which counts for a lot in my book. I used to think the same of Starmer, but no longer. I think it is an integrity issue in the end - he can't control his party enough to speak as he should.

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 18:08

We’ll likely see more strain against interconnected treaties set up post war as we progress with mass migration due to climate pressure

Not just here, but with other countries saying no. Which they already are, not sure how.

Citizens will start to demand change

yesterweek · 03/10/2023 18:10

lechiffre55 · 03/10/2023 17:32

To the messages above. The European Court of Human Rights ( legal court ) is the final arbiter of legal matters brought under the European Convention of Human Rights ( a treaty ).

The Tories are not talking about leaving the treaty part, they are talking about leaving the court part. So the rights would stand, as already ensconced in UK law, only the final artbiter of any cases would not be the EU court.
But I think the convention call for the EU court to be the final arbiter, so it may not be possible to ditch the EU court while retaining the treaty.

The Tories are not talking about this. A faction within the Tories are talking about this and leaving the ECHR and replacing it with a so called British Bill of Rights is part of it. This has been the case for years. Another faction, not as noisy but fairly powerful, is totally against it as it's bat shit crazy and unworkable. It would split the party. Dominic Raab tried to do it with a bill that was a laughing stock amongst jurists. He basically replicated the Human Rights Act to say his bill preserved the rights from the ECHR, but tried to make those rights essentially unenforceable in domestic courts, with all the legal commentary pointing out that it would breach our international treaty obligations. You best pray that the mentalists who want this BS "to deal with illegal immigrants", never get their way, because it won't just be people you dislike who suffer. We would be following Russia and Belarus on a road to fascism.

Rudderneck · 03/10/2023 18:14

GrammarTeacher · 03/10/2023 17:50

Except that the GFA was brilliant. And important. And putting in protections for it has turned out to be vital. Given how many of the current Tories seem to have forgotten about it when they were negotiating Brexit. Peace in NI matters.

That doesn't seem to follow?

Zebedee999 · 03/10/2023 18:17

BethDuttonsTwin · 03/10/2023 17:09

Also they know they're going to be subjected to hyperbolic ranting and attempts to shame them for being so evil as to vote Tory. Best not to engage.

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Quite. I've voted Labour in the past but I don't like all the screaming of "Tory Scum" or similar graffiti or rants you get. Debate is good but Labour supporters - as evidenced on here tend to promote hate rather than debate. That is not for me. I am a swing voter and will change but the hate filled rants you see on here really turn me off Labour.

Butterkist8 · 03/10/2023 18:18

No

Rudderneck · 03/10/2023 18:19

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 18:08

We’ll likely see more strain against interconnected treaties set up post war as we progress with mass migration due to climate pressure

Not just here, but with other countries saying no. Which they already are, not sure how.

Citizens will start to demand change

Yes, it's difficult to see how this problem won't get worse. And start to create real conflicts in governance.

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 03/10/2023 18:22

Absolutely!

Terfenheimerama · 03/10/2023 18:23

Yes, I’d give her a chance, but she’d have to be very tough to survive.

donquixotedelamancha · 03/10/2023 18:26

No. She seems quite competent (not hard compared to a decade of shite) but her views are faaaar to the right of mine and the entire party is a disaster.

I'm not thrilled by Starmer but at this point literally anyone would be better than the current government.

Spinet · 03/10/2023 18:30

SaffronSpice · 03/10/2023 18:06

.You would rather an unelected supranational body had the final say rather than a democratically elected government who can be elected out?

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The ECHR functions perfectly well but if I did think an elected government should leave it and create a new system I write want the UK constitution to be much more robust than it has shown itself to be this last ten years or so. I would struggle to call this one elected democratically.

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 18:33

Spinet · 03/10/2023 18:30

The ECHR functions perfectly well but if I did think an elected government should leave it and create a new system I write want the UK constitution to be much more robust than it has shown itself to be this last ten years or so. I would struggle to call this one elected democratically.

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What was undemocratic about the last GE?

Weefreetiffany · 03/10/2023 18:37

Zebedee999 · 03/10/2023 18:17

Quite. I've voted Labour in the past but I don't like all the screaming of "Tory Scum" or similar graffiti or rants you get. Debate is good but Labour supporters - as evidenced on here tend to promote hate rather than debate. That is not for me. I am a swing voter and will change but the hate filled rants you see on here really turn me off Labour.

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I mean you were practically foaming at the mouth at me earlier (14:53) saying labour are responsible for war crimes and you would never vote for them and “shame on [me]” for criticising the tories. So look in the mirror as you were definitively “promoting hate over debate.” Any argument to hate on labour it would seem, while being wilfully blind to you and your parties’ bad behaviour. How VERY Tory.

PorcelinaV · 03/10/2023 18:37

If there is no ECHR, there would be no guarantees of rights for anyone, including those on the right.

There aren't necessarily real "human rights" being protected, if courts can reach completely opposite decisions just depending on the individual judges, and their personal bias can easily be in play.

We have the Gender Recognition Act because of the ECHR. Is that good that we are protecting such rights?

What if they did something like discovered rights for foetuses using some convoluted legal reasoning?

Given that the ECHR could make bad decisions, which then violate people's rights, it's far from a perfect system to protect rights.

Other alternative systems wouldn't be perfect either of course, but I don't see why people assume that the ECHR is so amazing.

Spinet · 03/10/2023 18:44

Well, if you dismiss the fact that it was essentially another Brexit vote based on lies and proven interference from outside sources, nothing I suppose. However I would suggest that a system in which allows members of its government to lie, break the law, abuse the procedures of parliament and show themselves to be corrupt and none of that triggers a general election, it can't really be called democratic. When people used to do the honourable thing and resign, maybe.

Additionally although the current leader and the one before were elected by their constituents as MPs neither of them had been given a public mandate to form a government. Was the current PM even elected as leader by his party rather than just MPs? I can't remember. How can the fact it's perfectly possible he wasn't be considered a democratic system?

Zebedee999 · 03/10/2023 18:45

Weefreetiffany · 03/10/2023 18:37

I mean you were practically foaming at the mouth at me earlier (14:53) saying labour are responsible for war crimes and you would never vote for them and “shame on [me]” for criticising the tories. So look in the mirror as you were definitively “promoting hate over debate.” Any argument to hate on labour it would seem, while being wilfully blind to you and your parties’ bad behaviour. How VERY Tory.

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No I said shame on me (and anyone else) for voting for Labour who created an illegal war killing millions. But you live and learn. You are jumping to conclusions and stereotyping... I haven't even decided if I will vote next time, they are all equally useless. But it most likely will not be Labour as there were never any repercussions for creating an illegal war killing millions and I have an issue with that, whilst you are ok with that.

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/10/2023 18:46

No, absolutely not.

MoirasSaggyBundles · 03/10/2023 18:48

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/10/2023 16:33

If we allow the government, any government to strip us of our human rights, authoritarianism will follow.

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It's the other way round, surely. First come the authoritarian laws - ostensibly brought in to protect a culture/way of life/group of people by forbidding dissent against it/them. Then, when dissent occurs, or is manufactured by the authoritarian government to have occurred, the dissenters/class of dissenting peoples are stripped of their rights.

skippy67 · 03/10/2023 18:49

But my bigger concern is the silent left-wing coup that has taken over the civil service. I think the Tories are being hobbled by that and I fear what extremes they will go to with labour in charge.

The Tories are being "hobbled" by their own lies, corruption, in fighting and incompetence How can you not see that?

tinytemper66 · 03/10/2023 18:50

I wouldn't t vote Tory whoever was leader.

Weefreetiffany · 03/10/2023 18:51

Zebedee999 · 03/10/2023 18:45

No I said shame on me (and anyone else) for voting for Labour who created an illegal war killing millions. But you live and learn. You are jumping to conclusions and stereotyping... I haven't even decided if I will vote next time, they are all equally useless. But it most likely will not be Labour as there were never any repercussions for creating an illegal war killing millions and I have an issue with that, whilst you are ok with that.

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“Zebedee999 · Today 14:53

You're clearly too young to remember Labour's illegal war that killed millions and resulted in terrorism in this country killing kids at pop concerts etc. If you deem that to be better than what the tories have done then shame on you.
Personally I'd take someone eating cake when they shouldn't over illegal wars any time... but that is just me I guess. Lots still vote Labour (sadly I voted for them and am therefore partly guilty for the millions of deaths they caused).”

you brought up the topic of the Iraq war and ignored all my examples of what tories have done lately and how they also voted for that war. You’ve literally just lied as you clearly said “shame on you” There’s disingenuous, dishonest and then @Zebedee999 it would seem.