Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

@CalMeKate you really are delusional if you think posting photos and comparing men in women’s changing rooms to lesbians is going to win you any arguments.

The gym doesn’t need to check ID. Little girls have already seen male parts. And I’m sure it was clear beforehand.

I’m glad your daughters have you to advocate for them.

Presumably a private swim lesson for 3 and your gym membership costs enough dosh that the gym won’t want to lose you, so don’t be afraid to point out that the reason you pay for this particular gym is because you bring your whole family and a penis in the ladies change area is not ‘family friendly’.

A man once lay on the wet and grubby floor of a mixed sex changing village in order to shove his head under my cubicle partition and perve on 21 year old me.
Never underestimate the sexual motivations of (a significant percentage but definitely not all) men, especially in accessing situations that permit them to be close to minors or very young adults.

Worse, this poster is lecturing the girls in using the wrong language to talk about having been exposed to male genitalia.

Someone failing to uphold their own professional standards, I’d say.

Yes.

Just like Wadhwa lecturing traumatised women to ‘reframe their trauma’.

And these people honestly believe they are on the right side of history. It is so fucked up.

Attempting to deflect by criticising language is a pretty well used technique for gaining control of a situation. It reminds me of PUA's 'negging'.

It’s indecent exposure. I’d report it to the police. Young girls having to see a stranger’s penis is not OK. Same as the competitive female swimmers in the US who had an intact male insisting on changing with them in their changing rooms so they had to hide in the loo. How can this be allowed?

Colour me surprised that if you scratch a TRA, you find a homophobe.

Stand up for your girls. The gym might listen to you more than they do other women.

Never assume that all trans are genuine, pink leggings and a wig Isla Bryson, used trans identity to access a girls beauty course. And got sent to a womans prison before public outcry got him removed.

Apologies if someone had already mentioned this, but if the swimming lesson is at a regular slot each week, and the individual has been there more than once I’d be a bit concerned that the individual has identified a time when there’s girls in the changing room without an adult and is deliberately attending at that time.

It might be coincidence, of course, but there was a similar case in US where an individual “happened” to attend the public pool to coincide with the high school girls swimming team changing.

Unbelievable posts there from call me Kate- I cannot believe that you work in safeguarding- for which group of people? Not children??? Please.
Only men have penises - and should absolutely be in the changing room corresponding to sex not identity. Once upon a time this was obvious but now some people fall over themselves to be kind; it's dangerous. Remember that 'flashing' is known to be a gateway crime. Maybe Kate will tell us that if its a lady penis it doesn't count.
And it's women plural, woman singular.
My blood pressure just might shoot out of my head if I read any more of Kate's posts.
Perhaps that's the intention

True arabella. Calling attention to language to distract is very much an activist tactic. As is posting images as some twisted gotcha of ‘look at these ‘women’ with augmented breasts - they are harmless and should be in the women’s change room’.

This time it is distracting from a supposed safeguarding professional who is lecturing girls as you say. Telling girls that it is normal to have a male with their dicks out in the female single sec change rooms.

Next comes the lecture of not looking.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/2008/1769/made

'Exposure

70.—(1) A person commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally exposes his genitals, and

(b)he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this Article is liable—

(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;

(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.
Voyeurism

71.—(1) A person commits an offence if—

(a)for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, he observes another person doing a private act, and

(b)he knows that the other person does not consent to being observed for his sexual gratification.

(2) A person commits an offence if—

(a)he operates equipment with the intention of enabling another person to observe, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, a third person (B) doing a private act, and

(b)he knows that B does not consent to his operating equipment with that intention.

(3) A person commits an offence if—

(a)he records another person (B) doing a private act, and

(b)he does so with the intention that he or a third person will, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, look at an image of B doing the act, and

(c)he knows that B does not consent to his recording the act with that intention.

(4) A person commits an offence if he instals equipment, or constructs or adapts a structure or part of a structure, with the intention of enabling himself or another person to commit an offence under paragraph (1).

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this Article is liable—

(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;

(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.
Voyeurism: interpretation

72.—(1) For the purposes of Article 71 a person is doing a private act if the person is in a place which, in the circumstances, would reasonably be expected to provide privacy, and—

(a)the person’s genitals, buttocks or breasts are exposed or covered only with underwear,

(b)the person is using a lavatory, or

(c)the person is doing a sexual act that is not of a kind ordinarily done in public.'

(My bold)

My revulsion at adult males exposing their genitals in the presence of children, particularly girls, is not prejudice. It is a judgement based on decades of experience, some nasty first hand encounters, and many stories from friends, and a lot of horrific new reports.

Wrt to women being naked in the presence of children, I would think thatb a little suspect too - I have known vanishingly few women with exhibitionist tendencies (can only think of two) and they were unstable in other ways, but in any case their genitals would not be on display unless they were putting on a show.

Whether the exhibitionist is gay / straight / lesbian is irrelevant unless the nakedness is a sexual act in itself (not impossible).

What is the point of the pictures of blokes in swimwear and fake tits?

I think @CalMeKate safeguards trans people, not children or women.

Hi BelfastDad. Funnily enough I don't live far from there myself, so I can imagine where you are referring to.

I must say my own DD has additional needs and is much, much younger at present. With this in mind, when we go to somewhere with changing rooms I am obviously with her and I am also a mum as opposed to a dad. Anyway, regardless, even as a woman, and even more so as a woman with a vulnerable child, I would be kicking off big time over something like this. As a woman in my 30s, I most certainly do not want to see a man's penis moonlighting as a woman in changing rooms with me, much less so with my child. If this is not resolved satisfactorily, or they suggest in any way you are a bully, please take this to the local media. Your daughters should not have to put up with this nonsense. They are at a vulnerable age as it is, though from how they have tried to deal with it you can certainly see you've brought up two fabulous girls.

These girls have already had a penis flashed at them, possibly more than once. That is a sexual offence, the harm has happened. The intent required to make it a criminal offence is clearly there as they were made to feel uncomfortable.

Why on earth are you trying to minimise and justify this by suggesting that the danger is more online? The danger is right there, right now , in their changing rooms!!

@BelfastDadof3 thank you for being a good dad with the normal boundaries of a decent man. Please ignore anyone that remotely implies this is not a sexual offence.

@CalMeKate
You've been indoctrinated to spout nonsense and you don't even realise it.

Back 10 years ago, did you ever think you'd be defending male people exposing their genitals to young girls? Where did it all go wrong?

Tell me something, how do we know which transwoman is like Isla Bryson and which one is like, I don't know, Blaire White? Is it passing? Is it surgery?

You should take a good long look at yourself if you are actually involved in child safeguarding. When you defend exposing children to penises, you've gone wrong somewhere.

Please let us know how you got on OP

Lots of “he” in there.

Omg just cannot believe what I've just read.

A man has repeatedly exposed himself to your young daughters, on a weekly basis, op. How are you not calling the police?! You are pussy footing around about club policies and worrying about seeming "phobic".

Please, protect your daughters!

The very fact that they didn't tell you the first time it happened, tells you that you haven't educated them properly on boundaries and keeping themselves safe. At age 11 if I'd seen a man expose his naked penis in front of me I'd have run out and reported it to an adult instantly. Poor girls.

If it's this same Bannatynes in Belfast, your daughters are not the only female users to have been made uncomfortable by male nudity, OP:

'DISTURBED and UNCOMFORTABLE
Review of Bannatyne Health Club
Reviewed 11 February 2020

I add to my above comments on the one and only time i visited the club, i was invited along with a good friend to which i brought my child along too. First impressions where pretty much ok visiting the gym then onto the pool facilities, this is when i was completely annoyed, bearing in mind i had a toddler with me on arrival to the changing area it seemed too me that most of the male members thought it was perfectly normal to walk about Naked, no shame in showing off their private areas to be putting it politley i was Disgusted that such practise is allowed in a gym that is supposed to have a good reputation.'

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g186470-d16419548-r744332086-Bannatyne_Health_Club-Belfast_Northern_Ireland.html

Just to add - I really cannot agree that as yet, op is "a good dad".

At best he is a passive and ineffective dad at keeping his daughters safe, up to this point.

He has the chance to change that now, asap.

I've been thinking about those swimsuit pics. It's another version of trying to make women think full naked exposure in changing rooms is fine, or attempting to force women to talk about sanpro to strangers in loos. In this case the message is 'to be a woman you must have a hairless body and fake tits and long hair and get dressed up and strike poses'. And if you have a hairless body and fake tits and long hair you are a woman, nay, you are 'female' even if you have XY chromosomes and a lifetime shaped by testosterone.

Guess what, most women, for most of their lives, are not remotely like that. We don't have to be, because we have nothing to prove - we have XX chromosomes. We are female. And I don't want anyone with XY chromosomes in my female only spaces whether they still have their penis or not.

They are trying to be adult and solve this problem themselves without worrying you, but it isn't possible for them as children. They need you to step in as their parent.

It is no accident that this is a weekly occurrence.