Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Are there really people who believe this working in safeguarding?! My mind has been blown today and it's not even 8am.

Do you want everyone with a penis to change in the men's changing rooms? Uhh... YES!!!!! How is that even a question? I'll even go as far to say that even if this trans woman had had bottom surgery, I'd still want them changing in the men's. You don't have to have a penis to sexually assault someone.

95% of people are abused by someone they know. That means young teenage girls are safe with random strangers getting their penises out? How do we know that this trans woman is one of the "safe" ones? I mean, if he's getting his penis out in the middle of a female changing room I'd hazard a guess and say he's not one of the safe ones.

In my kids school, any kids transitioning or questioning gender use single occupancy changing rooms.

I did discus the correct terms to use.

Personally, as a man, I don't think I have the right to dictate what happens in the female changing. But as a parent I do have the right to ask what the policies are, if they are implemented and if i agree. If I take issue then I'll take my membership elsewhere.

I do think it's fair and not prude to ask if management could put out some info asking men in the gents to try and respect other people sensitivities and wear a towel where appropriate.
Some will stand naked and brush their teeth, or just wander about naked but towel slung over the shoulder. It's unnecessary.

I agree with everyone but the last point. Don't mention trans. Don't call the individual he or she. Just say 'they' or 'this person' if you need to.

Do point out that your DD and friends feeling the need to use the disabled cubicle mean there are no or fewer disabled cubicles for the people who need them, with Equality Act implications.

What. The. Hell. Have. I. Just. Read.

@CalMeKate do we want male people to change in the male changing room? YES WE DO. Absolutely.

You sound like a great dad. Let us know how you get on

Fuck! Have you worked out yet that the 7% who are abused by strangers need actual fucking protection and you in safeguarding are expected to provide that?

Your post shows all sorts of harmful notions on so many levels.

What's absolute insanity, I think you've definitely drink the Kool Adi! Saying its fine for someone with a penis to undress in a space with young girl and women is just crazy, and you work in safeguarding. Kate what makes a person with a penis a women?

So basically in @CalMeKate world, the need for an adult man’s validation overrides the importance of safeguarding children, let alone privacy & dignity for women. God forbid a man might be made to feel a bit sad.

FFS

@BelfastDadof3
regarding the piece you wrote below - I would NOT bring this up at this time, pick your battles & don’t dilute your argument. If you go in on the two points you may seem OTT (especially if they don’t have a policy on men wearing towels in the mens - whereas they seem to have one on TW not using female changing facilities) . I think the below might end up undermining /derailing your other reasonable request.

”i do think it's fair and not prude to ask if management could put out some info asking men in the gents to try and respect other people sensitivities and wear a towel where appropriate.
Some will stand naked and brush their teeth, or just wander about naked but towel slung over the shoulder. It's unnecessary.”

I don’t believe @CalMeKate works in safeguarding. I had basic safeguarding training when I was a school governor and even that made it clear that Kate’s talking bollocks.

I agree with this @BelfastDadof3

Your post is digusting and harmful to women and girls.

And I can guarantee this 95% statistic is bollocks. The amount of attacks by a stranger will mostly go unreported. Also, what constitutes an ‘attack’ really? I remember walking along the street at 14 years old in my school uniform and a man approaching me to tell me I had nice breasts. I was also once groped in a train station. I spoke about both with my therapist, reported neither to an authority. Women and girls need protecting from male strangers. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE NAKED.

She most likely identifies as female and is therefore in the correct changing room. Yes the changing rooms are single sex but if you identify as female and have a penis then you are going to use the female changing room.
No. Single sex is about biology, and actual reality. Sex is not gender. Identifying as a woman, man, panda, alien, whatever, is irrelevant. It's not sex, and the changing rooms are sex segregated.

I work with child safeguarding and 93-95% of child are abused by someone they know. 1 in 9 girls (terrifyingly high) although I suspect higher as many don’t report.

And showing your penis to unconsenting females is abuse. It's flashing. This person could be using a cubicle, one exists, fully self contained with shower. They are choosing to expose themselves to women and girls.

The best way you can keep your child safe is by encouraging them to have strong boundaries, knowing the difference between “stranger danger” and “strange behaviour”.

Exposing your penis to unconsenting females is 'strange behaviour'. The OPs daughter's boundaries are clear - they do not want to be exposed to this person's penis. As a result they are excluded from their appropriate changing room and are forced to used the disabled provision.

If your daughters feel safer and more comfortable going in to the cubicle that is their choice and I would encourage them to continue to make choices THEY are comfortable with. They are both going to make many many decisions throughout their life and adapt their actions and behaviours so they feel safe (which is the reality of girlhood and womenhood).

Women and girls should not be forced to exclude themselves from provision for their sex, it is there for them. Not for male people who wish to be 'validated' by infringing the rights of women and girls.

All of our children are growing up in a world with transpeople and I would continue to have ongoing conversations and trans people in their orbit. Maybe start by correcting the language from tranniemannie to transwomen.

This is the only part of your post I agree with. But they are children, and they are scared and uncomfortable. OP stated they've already had that conversation, which is good.

Also what do you want the outcome to be today when you go to the gym and speak to them? Do you want the transwomen banned from the female changing rooms?

Yes, of course. They're single sex changing rooms. The trans person's sex is male.

Do you want all people with penis’ to change in the male changing rooms?

Of course.

What if this was at school and a trans girl got ready in their school changing rooms? How would you approach this situation?

In exactly the same way. Male and female sexes should be segregated where nudity is necessary for people from the start of puberty, generally the rule is age 8+. Regardless of whether it's a gym changing room or a school changing room. It's necessary for everyone's dignity, safety and comfort.
Including the trans person - one would imagine that a trans woman who wishes to 'pass' would not want people to see their penis and therefore be 'outed'.

I am
not asking you to challenge you I am just genuinely curious as to what you want the outcome to be.

Refusing to let your girls have Snapchat is fair more likely to keep them safe.

Good luck!

Do you want the transwomen banned from the female changing rooms? Do you want all people with penis’ to change in the male changing rooms?

Yes. What is so controversial about this?

Funnily enough this just came up yesterday at my Bannatyne gym which is supposed to provide single sex changing rooms.

here are the relevant screenshots and I was told to email their legal department. I think it will only be helpful if a number of members all email at the same time stating they want the single sex spaces we were promised by Duncan and are entitled to under the equality act enforcing.

the email address is
[email protected]o.uk

@BelfastDadof3 i agree with others, you sound like a great dad and companies need to see it is not just middle aged women who have an issue with this. It is so important that girls and women have the opportunity to exercise throughout life and I hate to think of anyone self-excluding but it will keep happening if they don't feel safe and welcome. Gyms and pools should make additional provisions for people who need or should use private changing areas.

Do you mean that you have witnessed a male in the female changing room too? Or were you just clarifying with your tweet?

Because for something that is supposed to be so very ‘rare’ and ‘never happens’ there is now a very long list of women and girls reporting males in their changing rooms.

Let’s not forget just how often in the past we were scolded on this board that there are no communal changing rooms anymore, so we were scaremongering and hateful. Do you all remember those threads?

I found your post very upsetting - I fall into your category of sexually abused by a stranger at the age of 11 and after 40 plus years of angst you implying the OP should not be concerned because most sexual abuse occurs between people known to each other is completely belittling the experience of being abused by a stranger.

Besides you are completely missing the point - the point is that we don't want young girls to feel they have to put up with being exposed to the male genitals of strangers. This has nothing to do with this person in the change room - its about conditioning our children to expect that it is normal to see a stranger's male genitals. This person likely has no ill intent but you are making young children vulnerable as they may be in a completely different circumstance and think its accepted by society for strangers to show them their genitals. As this is exactly what did happen with the OPs girls as they never mentioned this to their father it just came out in conversation.

If you want to throw statistics around its female children who are the most at risk of sexual abuse so we are talking about a more vulnerable group of children.

The thing is - I am pro choice about all aspects of life and fully support everyone wanting to live their authentic lives. What I don't get is that women tend to be supportive of each other and want to protect vulnerable children. Surely a transwoman can see that not exposing her male genitals to young girls makes sense in this context? Why would they want young girls to feel think its normal to see male genitals? What we really need is transwomen to say hey we get the argument about not conditioning young girls that its OK that a stranger shows their male genitals - we need transwomen to understand and support us.

Personally, I don't actually mind being in a change room with a transwoman because I cover up when I change. I did once over 20 years ago walk into an adult only female change room and have what I guess was a transwomen - while fully looking me in the eye - lift her leg on the bench seat next to me so her genitals were fully exposed. While I thought it odd as it looked like she was getting a kick out of it - it was long before the trans issue was a hot topic and I never even thought to mention it to others as it was in London and an adult only change room and I was used to a lot of weird behaviour. Which kind of proves my point - we can get conditioned to anything but as an adult I can do a sense check - children are more vulnerable and so I do very much mind a stranger's male genitals being exposed to young girls. Our children need us to stand up and make society protect them and I hope the trans community will see how important this is and stand with us.

@Helleofabore i haven’t seen anyone but some other members were saying there’s been a trans woman using the changing rooms, so I’m seeking clarity on their policy.

Thanks Hermione.

Incredible how many of these ‘never going to happen’ events are happening

Please tell me you don't actually work in child safeguarding?! There is no circumstance whatsoever where women and children should be unexpectedly exposed to a stranger's penis.

@Helleofabore states above that it's now claimed that there are no communal changing rooms, yet I saw someone here only last week saying we've always had them (we haven't, btw). As ever, the trans mob have no consistent argument.

Do I want all penis people kept out of women's changing rooms, Kate? You bet I do. I don't understand your distinction between 'strange behaviour' and 'stranger danger' when the one so easily leads to the other.

I'll be kind for once and think you're just naive.

So … it is the ‘reality of girlhood and womanhood ‘ to make choices to stay safe, according to you @CalMeKate
So if the naked men with penises are in the male changing rooms, and the naked trans women with penises are in the female changing rooms, then I guess the young girls should forget the swimming and stay home?
Unbelievable.

When did flashing and voyeurism stop being criminal acts?

When did safeguarding processes forget about children and move their focus onto protecting adult males' right to sexual fetishism involving those children?

Women who go along with this, such as our safeguarding "expert" above, are deeply dangerous.