Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

If a male exposed his genitals in a children's playground, you would call the police and report him for indecent exposure.
If a male walk into a female changing room and exposes his genitals to children, we flip flop and worry about coming across as phobic.
What a mess.
Report this individual and make a stink.
I would if it were me.
My 9 year old hasn't seen her dad's genitals and I'll be livid if she saw a stranger's.

And if women have noticed this cast iron opportunity to access vulnerable women/children, of course predators have also noticed it. In fact, may have helped to create the situation.

By sowing doubt about whether it's okay to query a naked man exposing his body in a women's changing room.

By attacking language choices to deflect attention

By promoting various unlikely scenarios.

By confusing the issue by conflating it with other issues.

It's all DARVO.

If the person in the changing room with male genitals was being private the girls would not have seen their penis and we would not be having this discussion. So yes - getting your penis out in a female changing room is flashing - so by your own guidelines you should be helping us to keep girls safe.

I don’t agree that it’s fair to start attacking the OP.
Lets keep concerns on the issue pls

Well I’m of course completely convinced by photoshopped to fuck pictures of men with plastic surgery. Just a reminder that the camera does indeed lie. Both of these are Grace Lavery

Just to make it very clear I am not advocating men flashing women/teenagers/children their genitals in any form. A man pretending to be a transwomen to gain access to women, girls, and children is a predator and should be treated as such. Reported for criminal behaviour to the police.

This man the OP is talking about is pretending to be a woman so I'm glad you think he should report it to the police

But from what OP said this isn’t what happened. The transwomen was getting changed and the girls made themselves feel as safe and comfortable as possible with the situation.. you can’t ask for a better scenario!

I bloody can ask for better. The man pretending to be a woman can go and get changed in the men's. The girls should not have even had to consider making themselves feel safe and comfortable in a single sex space. That should be a given.

the world has gone Fucking mad!

Interestingly I swim regularly and there is only one changing room for mixed sex. I rarely see a penis. Have done a couple of times when I assumed the individual hadn't clocked it was mixed sex or they were an exhibitionist. Occasionally I see a woman who doesn't realise it's mixed sex. This is the first time I have thought perhaps mixed sex changing rooms make both sexes more discreet. I was thinking of your son too and his discomfort at the nakedness all around him.

you can’t ask for a better scenario!

I'm not asking. I'm saying:

No girls should be exposed to penises in women's changing rooms. It will not happen on my watch.

One open changing room, with no cubicles?

«We are living in a world where genitals does not reflect on identified sex. Women have penis’ and men have vulvas and vaginas.

Regarding the behaviour from what OP has said is that the transwomen was getting changed, not flashing her genitals at them.

How do we feel about lesbian women being naked in front of teenage girls whilst getting changed in the changing room? How do we feel about gay men getting changed in front of teenage boys in the men’s changing room?»

oh god. Total facepalm moment. I know others have adressed this more eloquently. My contrubution is more in the realm of «for fuck’s sake woman! Women do NOT have penises and men do NOT have vulvas and vaginas. YOU are a huge part of the problem here!»

Possibly rude, possibly. But what in the hell?
Also, airbrushed pictures of randoms off Instagram?

btw there are lovely people who dress how they want (feminine/masculine) and post that on insta WITHOUT any pretence of having changed their sex. They own their style!

I best not get started on the check your bias and privilege. Fuck off.

Use the facilities for your biological sex, or campaign for Third mixed sex spaces.
Leave the women’s spaces alone. We need them and we don’t want to share!

Also, Kate, your homophobia is showing.

I think it is good that you are adressing this OP. I am glad you are taking your daughters seriously and are talking to the gym.
I believe you will be talking for many who feel unable too.

@BelfastDadof3 as uncomfortable as it is to see, you are seeing a real time demonstration of how we have got into the problems we have today.

Extreme trans rights ideology means you get people like @CalMeKate claiming to be a safeguarding expert and telling us that we are wrong - so that people are terrified of being labelled as bigots and so say nothing.

Your gut feelings (and the same goes for the vast majority of women, and all decent men) are right - men should not be exposing their genitals to women and children. We are fighting to get back to a situation where this is accepted and women's single sex spaces are respected. It's absolutely crazy that this is the case, but it is absolutely not 'progress' for transwomen to be allowed to use female spaces.

Trans people need to campaign for their own spaces if they don't wish to use the male or female spaces according to their biological sex. And using a cubicle inside the women's changing area doesn't count.

How do we feel about lesbian women being naked in front of teenage girls whilst getting changed in the changing room? How do we feel about gay men getting changed in front of teenage boys in the men’s changing room?..The transwomen was getting changed and the girls made themselves feel as safe and comfortable as possible with the situation.. you can’t ask for a better scenario!

”We” don’t feel anything about lesbian women and gay men getting changed in the correct changing room for their sex. That’s a you problem and it’s got a name - homophobia!

You misrepresented the situation. The TW was getting changed - and the poor girls felt compelled to hide themselves away because the changing rooms in which they, as females, should have privacy and dignity, had been entered and, in effect, taken over by a male person. No TW I know would do that. It’s at best inconsiderate.

And I don’t have any bias and prejudice, thanks. You do though. You’re clearly homophobic and you consider women lesser. What the bikini pics were supposed to show, god knows. The point is only people who are actually female should be in the female changing rooms. It’s that simple. The female changing rooms aren’t an affirmation centre for TW; they’re not a refuge for gay men, old men, your lovely 95yr old great uncle who wouldn’t hurt a fly. They are for female people to preserve their dignity, privacy and safety.

All male people go in the male changing room or, if appropriate, a third space. This applies to men with long hair, men with man-buns, men with pony tails, gay men, men wearing eyeliner (miss you, 1980s!), males in bikinis, males in tankinis, males in swimming costumes, males with larger breasts, whether natural or augmented, men who’ve plucked their eyebrows, etc etc.

It is abhorrent when homophobia is used to prop up a scolding of women and girls to accept males showing their penis in a female only space.

Maybe this person identifies as a brick wall and a drainpipe, and if so, should we all treat them as a brick wall and a drainpipe out of respect.

How do we feel about lesbian women being naked in front of teenage girls whilst getting changed in the changing room?

Outrageous and offensive insinuation. Nobody cares about lesbians changing with women and girls.

But from what OP said this isn’t what happened. The transwomen was getting changed and the girls made themselves feel as safe and comfortable as possible with the situation.. you can’t ask for a better scenario!

I’m quite stunned that we’ve got to a point where someone who is presumably a woman @CalMeKate, and claims they understand safeguarding thinks that a male repeatedly exposing himself to little girls to the point that they hide themselves away so they don’t have to look at him is a desirable scenario.

I think Kate needs to ask for a refund on that safeguarding course.

It's not complicated to most females; no males in female spaces, no matter how they identify.
It's not transphobic, it's safeguarding.

@CalMeKate your reply does not 'meet everybody's needs'.

If you are working in safeguarding as you say, you are only serving the needs of men who failed to 'check their privilege' before destroying women's safe spaces.

Beliefs like yours are actively putting women and children at risk. And I speak as someone who has been sexually abused both by strangers and by men that I knew well.

The naivety of assuming that every transwoman is acting in good faith is understandable to a point, but the glaring problem is that any man can call himself trans and get into the women's changing rooms. This is the very essence of safeguarding - having rules without exceptions, so that anyone breaking them cannot hide.

I would be furious and and shouting from the rooftops, it's not acceptable, it shouldn't be tolerated or accepted as normal.

Goodness - you should "check your privilege" if you think a 9 year old girl shouldn't be exposed to a man who claims to be a woman flashing hIs penis at her!

No wonder rates of abuse against women and girls are through the roof if (admittedly a self identified "safeguarding worker") condones flashing.

This is the very essence of safeguarding - having rules without exceptions, so that anyone breaking them cannot hide.

Eggzackly, @MassiveWordSalad ! It’s not hard to understand. If women’s rights are “transphobic” it means there’s a clash of rights, and I vote that my rights as a woman outweigh the wants of men.

@BelfastDadof3

"I just think that my daughters shouldn't have to see a penis untill they want to."

This really stood out for me as a powerful statement. Honestly, this is such a great line - you should definitely use this when speaking to the manager.

The pool I go to has a unisex changing village, it's row after row of cubicles and lockers with no viable space for getting changed outside the cubicle. There are 4 good sized family rooms with lockable doors and accessible features like good solid benches and changing tables and a little cot/playpen in the corner.

Showers have floor to ceiling solid lockable doors and the only communal showers are open to the side of the pool for rinsing off before getting in the pool.

Everyone goes into a cubicle or room and gets changed, have never seen any nakedness from either sex and it works really well.

@ArabeIIaScott sorry, yes there are lockable cubicles although the locks are flimsy and many are broken - I have raised it with management.

The changing room is very large with lots of open space where people walk about in their swimming gear. There are individual and communal showers. I guess I don't understand why anyone feels the need to walk around naked when there are kids about. My observation is that largely in the mixed sex changing room people are discreet and don't walk about naked.