If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Yes, this is important.
The debate is by no means a 50/50 split, in that it affects biological women far more than it ever affects biological men.
I am guessing here, but I would say that 99% of men either don't notice or don't care who shares a bathroom /changing room with them, because it is not hard wired into them to be aware of such things, and no threat is posed to them.
It IS hard wired into females to be aware or who is around them when they are in a vulnerable situation, and it is hard wired even more in females who have been through some kind of trauma at the hands of a male person.
Women are always going to be more vulnerable to males , that's just the way it is and that will never change irrespective of how that male identifies/is dressed/how long his hair is/how good his makeup is/how high his voice is/how big his breast implants are etc.

And there are MANY many more trans women than there are trans men for some reason (not). Actually does anyone know the statistical split on that? And so it affects women and girls disproportionally.

I know this is an obvious point for most sane women, but men are bigger, stronger, faster, more aggressive, and can rape you with a penis and impregnate females. It's not rocket science to say that the reverse is not true and that females can and do not generally pose a threat to males in general.

What do "we" want trans people to do?
Use spaces and facilities appropriate to their biological sex.

I don't care what they look like. A beard doesn't make someone a man, and a dress doesn't make someone a woman.

And it's not up to "us" to solve the problem of some males feeling threatened or vulnerable in the males toilet.
After all, when TW use the women's toilet they are doing EXACTLY the same to the women in there aren't they?

But they just don't care about THAT.........

What about all the transmen who do still have the potential to become pregnant? Do you give a crap about them or are you basing everything off your mate?

My stepdaughter says she’s a man. She’s a 5’1” anorexic 17 year old female who weighs under 6 stone (BMI of around 15.5)

She hasn’t yet transitioned medically or surgically and wears goth style feminine clothes (eg black net tutu skirts) but has registered at 6th form college as male and has changed her name to a male name via deedpoll.

Does my stepdaughter belong in a male youth’s prison?

Does Elliot Page belong in a male prison?

Should your mate be on a block with Isla Bryson, the rapist?

Should any vagina person be locked in a cell with any penis person?

Thankfully most transmen are less cavalier about their safety and transmen are routinely housed in the female estate and very rarely request otherwise.

You can’t be much of a mate if you would advocate for your friend to be locked in a prison cell with a penis haver without even asking your mate first.

To quote Sadiq Khan, ‘Maate.’

I’m going to stop posting now, I don’t know why I bothered, I’m off work and got sucked in I suppose. I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological. It’s so not helping anyone. The cruelty and nastiness on this thread I’ve come to expect, but the stupidity I find mind-boggling.

(and I know you all think my views are stupid and not feminist, but ah well - we’ll never agree on this I suppose)

Do you understand that men commit 99% of all sex crimes? And 88% of the victims are women?

Do you understand that two women a week are killed by men, and never the other way around?

Do you understand a man's punch is 160% more powerful than a woman's?

It's the basic risk assessment.

When women and girls are naked and vulnerable, the most effective risk reduction you can have, is sex segregation.

do you understand that if women and men compete in sport simultaneously, women will never win?

I don't understand the logic of this at all. Having a separate category for women isn't "othering" women at all. There is a need for separate categories for women in sports, toilets, healthcare etc. Women are biologically and physically different than men. Recognising that difference and ensuring that women are protected from the negative consequences of that isn't "othering" women. Its ensuring safety, dignity and fairness.

Your friend is female. Testosterone has not given your friend the punch power of even a weak man, nor the grip strength. Because those are biomechanical aspects of their body that cannot match a male. Oh, and that they are far more likely to have their skull severely damaged and brain damage if a male attacks their head.

Saying your friend is a ‘man’ doesn’t change that they are vulnerable to rape as I assume they probably still have a vagina.

Your adherence to ideological thinking is dangerous. Fucking dangerous!

Do you have any examples of "cruelty and nastiness" on this thread?

(and I know you all think my views are stupid and not feminist, but ah well - we’ll never agree on this I suppose)

I guess we won't. One of these views is more founded in reality and consideration for the rights of women and girls than the other though.

And the post you responded to as about sport.

Do you or don’t you believe female people (not on testosterone) should have sports categories to recognise their achievements?

The post was about sports that you replied to. Hence the question.

I think your views are dangerous.

I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological.

I'm sorry, this seems a very odd position to take.

Women are vulnerable when it comes to males. Statistically speaking. Or do you not see sexual violence, rape and dv as issues that affect women?

And of course women are 'biological', how on earth else can you 'define' a biological category?!

They should dress, speak, act and enjoy anything they choose in whatever way they choose that doesn't cross the boundaries of another person's wellbeing.

They should acknowledge that their beliefs about the nature of gender as a phenomenon independent of sex is a philosophical belief, akin to a religion, which they have every right to believe and have that belief respected as far as it doesn't impose requirements on non-believers, but they have no right to expect others to believe.

They should respect that resources and opportunities for women are for people of the female sex regardless of gender beliefs, unless it is a resource or opportunity that was explicitly created for people with a feminine gender identity (not something that was created for female people and more recently co-opted).

@vibecheck

Maate! We don’t have ‘feminine biology’!

We have female biology.

It’s very sexist if you to associate female with feminine - @Luizaa, another poster on this thread is a feminine male, your friend is a masculine female.

Sex (male and female) and Gender (masculinity and femininity) are not the same thing.

As long as we keep insisting that sex and gender are separate, the old patriarchal bollox about women being the feminine humans (and thus incapable of anything masculine-coded) can’t take hold.

You and your mate are regressing back to the old days, not us.

And of course only one sex is vulnerable to pregnancy and all that entails. While only one sex (the other one) is able to impregnate.

Do trans women want to use women's toilets because they think it's a cute fluffy place where we all swap lipsticks and rearrange our cardigans or something?

Personally I use women's toilets because I don't want to potentially be raped by man.

If trans women share that fear, then why aren't they focusing their energy on challenging men?

What I resent is that the trans woman vs woman argument stems from male violence, and yet men are not involved in the debate at all

To me, it's a fair enough question from the OP, and one I think about as a GC feminist. I'm interested to read the responses on this thread.

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces. However, I would not permit this in spaces for children or vulnerable women e.g sexual abuse survivors, medical patients etc. I realise there are gaps in this policy, and they'd need to plugged with discernment and kindness.

I don't think it's fair for trans women to be allowed to compete against women in sport. I realise that's hard on athletic trans women, but I can't see an alternative.

It's hard to find fair, kind answers - that apply in all situations - at either end of the spectrum of debate. For me, we have to feel our way forward, and I don't have anything more comprehensive than the thoughts above.

Please flame me, if you're so inclined. I'm offering this as a contribution to discussion. I'm very open to hearing other views, or the flaws in my thoughts. I'm not interested in being shouted down, intimidated or mocked. So please don't bother.

(Not that I blame them btw, this subject is an absolute minefield if you are a respectful, nice man I imagine: support women and you are a transphobe, support TRAs and you're a sexist - lose lose situation)

Do trans women want to use women's toilets because they think it's a cute fluffy place where we all swap lipsticks and rearrange our cardigans or something?

I guess there will be some different motivations.

Some say they are afraid of other men and therefore should be allowed to use women's spaces. (Women of course are not afforded the luxury of a male-free space if this happens; we are supposed to just suck it up).

Some want 'validation' of their 'woman' identity.

Some want to use them for other reasons - I will count the transwoman I saw masturbating in the ladies' in this category.

I imagine that the weight of cognitive dissonance of the opinion that people can change their sex category just by saying so, when it blatantly isn't true in any meaningful sense, and not actually being able to defend why you don't believe women should have the right to single sex spaces apart from throwing out some trite comment about "othering biological women" must be difficult.

The answer is third spaces, you know those 'gender neutral' spaces that some wish to impose on us. Those of us ,XXs, who still want the 'ladies' go there, if you don't mind taking your chance in 'gender neutral ' spaces ,then use those. But ,don't take away our spaces , for those who think biology matters.

I would not permit this in spaces for children or vulnerable women e.g sexual abuse survivors, medical patients etc.

Absolutely no desire to 'flame' anyone, but I have a question - have you any idea how many women are survivors of sexual abuse? Stats suggest it's at very least one in five.

And all women are of course more vulnerable to male violence than men are vulnerable to violence from other males, because of the size/strength differential, as well as the statistical likelihood of males to be violent and/or commit sexual assaults.

I'm curious which spaces for women don't include 'vulnerable women'.

I think as women we can start kicking back at government policies in the language we use and what we say. For example the other day as part of a medical questionnaire the practitioner asked me something along the lines of "were you assigned female at birth" or "do you identify as your birth gender", sorry I really can't remember the exact question but it was to do with gender/sex and I just said "I'm a woman". She didn't push me on that so clearly took whatever she wanted from it (which must mean something?). It might be petty but I felt good about it

@vibecheck

I really hope you're still reading this.

I cannot understand how there is a generation of women (I'm assuming you're young-ish), who have been lead to genuinely believe that men and women are totally equal biologically.

They're not. Women are more vulnerable.

It's not a judgement. It's not a value assessment.

it's just a fact.

Do you never consider why women are the ones who are raped? Or about domestic violence statistics? Refuges for women?

Last time I looked there were about 5000 men in prison just for sex offences. And about 130 women.

In fact, 96% of the entire prison population is male.

we don't segregate unless it's necessary. In shops, or offices say!

Just when women are quite literally practically naked or in a very vulnerable situation. And of course, sport.

If men didn't commit all the sex and violent crimes, and if women weren't disproportionately the victims of sex crimes, it would be a different story.

People have speculated before about the effects of movies showing kickass women, fighting off half a dozen beefy blokes.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that people are genuinely starting to believe this.

I just can’t get over how any woman can believe they’re a feminist whilst consistently defining womanhood as vulnerable and biological.

We're very strong when we get together to protect ourselves and each other. But we've a tendency to undermine ourselves by prioritising vulnerable men - though even vulnerable men can pose a danger to women.

Don't sacrifice yourself (and other women) to a fantasy of female invulnerability.

I’m going to stop posting now

OK then. Look after yourself.

@TriedTurningItOff :
I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.
I'm a Lesbian, and have had to deal with transgender men (straight and gay) in my Lesbian social group on dating apps.

Do you think this is just or fair when I am same-sex attracted?