If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Yes, it’s almost as if there is some willed confusion going on, but that is surely impossible.

I have someone a lot closer to home to think about.

OP what do you think Laverne whosis and Elliot Page should do?

@NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom - my friend no longer has the ability to become pregnant, and no longer has a cervix. He does have relevant medical screenings to him, including a mammogram due to early family history of breast cancer (he’s had much of his breast tissue removed but obviously can still develop breast cancer, as can biological males). But if he were to commit a crime I would expect him to be in a man’s prison, yes. I’ve not discussed it with him but I’m sure he would as well.

Your friend would be at huge risk in a man's prison. Because your friend is female.

Language is important, I am male with motivations more closely associated with stereotypical feminine interests.
My motivations have no impact on my biological sex, nor would any amount of surgery andor hormones.
Selling the fantasy of a 'sex change' is deeply harmful, there needs to be a honest discussion that you can lead whatever lifestyle you like (within the law) without being mutilated.

“But if he were to commit a crime I would expect him to be in a man’s prison, yes. I’ve not discussed it with him but I’m sure he would as well.”

And this is how harmful entrenched ideological thinking is. Putting female people into male prisons, and vice versa, and thinking this is appropriate. Thinking this is even righteous.

They are adults- they can do whatever they want so long as it does not impinge on other people's rights. Trans people should be able to live their lives free from discrimination, fear, prejudice or judgement, and should be have the same rights and protections that other people have.That includes among other things, sport and breastfeeding. If I was in charge, there would be no body modifying surgery under the age of 18, and no body modifying surgery without counselling. And the counselling would be proper counselling, not affirmation surgery.

God, I just don’t want women to be segregated in this way. I don’t want to be constantly defined by my biology and othered by it, whilst everyone else gets to be “all welcome”.

I tend to agree curlew except on the breastfeeding bit. No male should be feeding secretions from their own breasts to infants as those secretions have not been even adequately studied and declared safe.

but that is a discussion already had on numerous threads and I do not want to derail this one.

I doubt that 'he' no longer has a cervix but 'he' certainly does not have a prostate. Nor is 'he' likely to be as tall as a man, 'his' hips will be wider and shoulders narrower unless 'he' has had extreme bone surgery.
True 'he' may well have secondary characteristics associated with men but this lasts as long as the implants, tablets or gel or applied.
I personally see no problem with using the Gents, fortunately there are cubicles where 'he' can go to sit and pee.

You see female sports as ‘othering’ female people? Have I misunderstood?

Christ. With friends like you who needs enemies?

Based on an ideology that has literally no basis in reality, you would send your female friend into a prison full of male criminals.

Fuck me. I've never seen so much misogyny.

You wouldn't be. The open category is for you, or any woman who wants it.

Hence 'open'.

@Luizaa sorry, have you never heard of a total hysterectomy? The cervix is fully removed. It’s also the same reason my mother is also not at risk from cervical cancer. I was responding to another poster asking about his risk from cervical cancer when giving that information.

My ideal world is one where people understand reality, where mental distress is treated with psychological support, where it's understood that men in particular are liable to a range of paraphilias which can include cross-dressing, where safeguarding principles are widely understood and adhered to, and where women's rights and single-sex spaces are sacrosanct.

Beyond that I couldn't give a fuck what anyone does with their life.

@Datun my friend is a man.

Transwomen should not be eligible for women’s awards or jobs. Nor should they be encouraged or assisted in breastfeeding babies. Further, they should be excluded from any female support groups or therapy sessions, especially for women who have been raped.

They should not attempt to infiltrate join maternity groups or pretending they gave birth when some poor woman did the work.

in addition the person who had a woman removed from a group for women who had experienced miscarriage is an example of why transwomen should be excluded from these groups. They have not experienced these ordeals.

What's your objection to the female/open classification? This has been adopted by UCI, FINA, WA, WR, CTT and others and has been widely applauded. It means that women can compete against other women on a level playing field. It also codifies that women can, if they wish, compete against men in the open class - this has been going on forever unofficially in my sport (cycling) when a women's race hasn't been able to run due to lack of entries but it's nice that it's now officially sanctioned.

I couldn't care less what words you need to use to uphold an ideology that would send a biological woman into a space full to the rafters with male criminals, where she couldn't escape.

As I said, it doesn't get more misogynistic.

vibecheck

just to be clear. Are you perfectly happy with all the transmen athletes competing in the open category?

100 agree.

Alongside all the transwomen, I mean.

@BCCoach @Helleofabore - the original poster wasn’t just talking about sports. They were talking about society in general. Yes, I don’t want society to section off “biological women” whilst everyone else gets to be everyone else, not defined by biology. That’s othering. That’s what women have been trying to escape for hundreds of years and now we’re back to women othering themselves. It’s not long before we go back to being told we can’t do XYZ because of our poor feminine biology

@vibecheck Segregation is an interesting word. Without getting into the connotations of racial segregation & consequent implicit linking of such sporting accommodations with a presumption of inferiority…

Think, for a second, about that open category everyone’s sharing. Imagine watching the race, & perusing the results table. What do you see? Women’s biology will “segregate” them, on the field & in the numbers! Visibly. Unavoidably.

Which do you think actively embraces difference & celebrates women’s unique, incredible, physiology more? Watching them finish, irrevocably (bar some lucky exceptions) behind the male bodies, & seeing them populate the unseen lower half of a long results table? Or a focus exclusively on women & their potential, the best the female body can do, in their own races?

Biology separates.

Humans “segregate”.

@Datun my friend is a man

Yes, that's what you believe. You say your friend is female, so it's not what many other people believe, as an adult human female is simply known as a woman. There's no value judgement attached, it's just biological reality.