I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

[betterchange]

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

A woman came out of one of the changing rooms whilst I was queueing and beckoned a man in. I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you should go in there, this is for women trying on underwear. The woman queried this but I stuck to my guns and the woman behind me in the queue backed me up; the man apologised and left. (It probably helped that they sounded as though English wasn't their first language so they may not have known the "rules"! I think it was a genuine misreading/mistake on their part.)

Anyway, no harm done, but it made me think - that was easy, but if it had been a very obvious man-dressed-as-a-woman, I'm far from sure that I would have felt able to speak out.

In that situation (the man-dressed-as-woman), would anyone here have said anything?

@StarlightLady

Why can’t we be concerned about safety on dark streets AND privacy & dignity in changing spaces? Should the little old lady who never goes out alone anyway disregard her discomfort changing near men because younger women face a wholly unrelated threat on the streets she doesn’t use?

And as regards exchange policies, I’m well aware of this: this afternoon, I’ll be going out & paying for parking to make my second trip to, hopefully, get the right undies second time around.

You’re right that there are bigger issues - safety on the streets - & there are ways around this - exchanging purchases. But I don’t see how these relate to the issue in question, unless the suggestion is, once again, that women’s concerns about changing rooms are unreasonable, & they should accept the additional, not inconsiderable, issues they face getting around these (should my hypothetical little old lady wobble her way through 4 bus trips to the shops instead of 2 simply be able to change in privacy? should I, for that matter?!)

Belatedly realise that my hypothetical little old lady seems rather inconsistent in her habits above - but you get the point! 😂

@GEC44 even more reason to keep changing rooms single sex.

Not sure if it's just me, but I'm not a huge fan of when pictures of people get brought into the conversation - The photos in this thread are a good example of why.

Sure, it's probably harder to distinguish who is and who isn't whatever sex when you're just looking at their face and literally cannot see anything else.
But height, build, gait, overall demeanour etc.
All of these things that we register subconsciously when "taking someone in" in the real world are sooooo so important.
And these things can't really be gauged from a still image, where they've likely taken a million selfies to get the "perfect" one.
I just don't think photos in general are a good way to make that point when everything the pictures people take are so fake to begin with, people will only post what they want other's to see and when it comes down to things like males in female spaces, when it's in real life, and it matters, you can tell.

As much as I adore Blaire White for example, and think she "passes" -
In videos where you can see her entire self, or videos where she's been on someone else's video/show and it's someone else's camera & lighting set up rather than her own, (at least imo) you can tell she's not biologically female.

A thought from listening to others here. A recent work visit to a large international company in a headquarters building had loos on the ground floor after reception, "Womens' toilets", "Mens' toilets" and "gender neutal toilets". Would the shop changing room solution be..."Womens' Changing Rooms" , Mens Changing Rooms and "Unisex changing rooms with locking cubicles", then people like myself who are not bothered could opt for the latter if it is quieter and others can use gender specific if they choose to.

In a similar situation the Barbican Centre offers "Toilets" and "Toilets with Urinals" On entry the urinals come after the cubilces through another door. The French have been relaxed about this style for years.

Women's, Men's and Mixed Sex. All good. That's the third space women have been asking for for years.

Toilets and Toilets with Urinals? No good at all. Men get a space that is exclusively theirs. Men get another space with women. Women get no exclusive space from men.

It doesn't matter what the French do. In this country ever since public toilets have been provided for women (and it's not that long, look up 'the urinary leash') they have been single sex.

Same at the Old Vic. :-(

As much as I adore Blaire White for example, and think she "passes" -
In videos where you can see her entire self, or videos where she's been on someone else's video/show and it's someone else's camera & lighting set up rather than her own, (at least imo) you can tell she's not biologically female.

So you can tell but they pass? Aren’t they opposing points?Isn’t the fact that they aren’t biologically female - and can’t become biologically female regardless of how much facial surgery they have - enough to say they don’t belong in female spaces?

From my understanding of what "passing" actually means in reality, it's if straight men on average perceive a trans woman as a bio woman, they pass, and if women on average view them as conventionally "pretty", they pass - So they don't really oppose in my mind I s'pose - Not sure if I've worded that particularly well, hope that makes sense!

So based on reductive stereotypes again. Good oh.

Women's safety on the streets and women's privacy and dignity in changing rooms are two sites of the same coin. The challenge to both is the same thing: men believing they have the right to take what they want from women.

That, too. These issues are so often presented as either/or to enable the dismissal of one concern as of negligible significance in relation to the other. But both are significant: 1) in different ways, for different reasons, due to their different contexts (see posts above!)… but, also, 2) for the reason you give - two sides of the same coin. And they do each affect societal conventions & standards. Framing women defending single sex spaces as hysterical Karen contributes to the silencing of & lack of respect for women’s public voice more generally. Removing single sex spaces does impact on some women’s access to & confidence levels moving in public spaces more generally.

I’m more wary of darkly lit station platforms now precisely because I know no one found question man following me into the previous potential refuge of the ladies’ loos. I’m not limiting myself much accordingly - very confident, in-depth eg McEnroe, well-travelled. But it’s become another relevant consideration on top of all the usual ones we all best in mind when travelling.

No one WOULD question - at least with the same degree of confidence as in the recent past.

(Can’t even remember what went where John McEnroe has appeared above. New phone & multi-tasking. Will check from now on!)

FWIW I'm not saying I agree with it, it's just what the realities of what the term "passing" actually means in day to day life when it's used as far as I can tell anyway😅

The whole toilet/ changing room thing is a mess. Who is preventing men- who “present” as women entering the women only?
Are staff going to be hired to filter out the men that look like women (as mentioned upthread. Yes- it’s usually possible if you study demeanour, gait, build etc) are staff grilling the masculine woman with short hair in a coat who could be a man? It’s a minefield because as a society there are no hard definitions of how the sexes should dress or present themselves as there were years ago.

Or are we as members of the public expected to go vigilante and “chase out” anyone we suspect of being a man from changing areas?
Are we making women too fearful by promoting the notion that any man entering a unisex space is a sexual predator?

I still think the only obvious solution is individual locked cubicles.

Mixed sex changing rooms are a proven danger for women.

Men are easy to recognize with their greater height, bulk, hips, Adams apple, brow, burgeoning beard. A child can tell.

The answer is for women's single sex provisions to be upheld and the social contact that men keep out of women's single sex spaces reinforced and women feel empowered once more to raise a hue and cry when men try to violate our boundaries.

Remember the teenage girls telling Eddie Izzard of? These men need to be shamed and to go use men's toilets and spaces and enjoy their trans euphoria there .

I do feel that women have the right to our own spaces.

Is the idea that women join forces and take it upon themselves to chase an (obvious) man from a changing area actually realistic?

Im certainly not prepared to confront a man in a changing area and get into a debate/ argument about his identity or his human rights, or attempt to forcibly remove him?
Despite lots of denial there are reasonable exceptions (eg carer) or grey areas where it may be difficult to judge a person’s sex on first look.

If a store hasnt labelled a changing area as “Women only” I wouldn’t have the backing of staff members to do this.

The debate over enforcing single sex changing areas has been rumbling on for years now with little resolution. I’m not suggesting we roll over and accept men in our spaces but it’s not as simple as (female) members of the public making a scene. Maybe it is? I suppose I feel quite conflicted!

Perhaps change for future generations would start if we stop teaching our children that men can become women by dressing as them.

SmileyClare; Stop the continued nonsense :
"where it may be difficult to judge a person’s sex on first look"

It's easy , so easy small children can correctly sex people.
And yes, this not-tall angry Lesbian is prepared to make a giant hue and cry if there is a man in the Ladies locker room, bathroom, changing area, ladies sport team.

It's very simple, woman are a huge voting force; we have power. We need to use it loudly , publically, continually
to get what we want.
Don't be kind.
Be Loud and Angry Ladies!

Mixed sex changing rooms are a proven danger for women.
Mixed sex changing rooms to me I think of family villages in leisure centres, swimming pools, that's where I've come across them before.
I see them as beneficial as if a single Dad for example took his child swimming then he has somewhere they can get changed together

Well done, OP. The man in question meant no harm but asserting boundaries is a good thing. A man has no business in the fitting room of the women's lingerie section, regardless of signage. Exceptional circumstances might necessitate it.

And yes, it would have been harder to discourage a male claiming to be a woman because of understandable fears of overreaction or accusations of transphobia or not being backed up.

are staff grilling the masculine woman with short hair in a coat who could be a man?
Where does this "women with short hair look like men" thing come from?? It's patently absurd.

I think the husbands/male partners of women who enter the changing rooms with them are idiots, and their wives/partners are in on it too, maybe some women have no choice due to the male partner's insistence etc..

I don't know of any man in my circle including my own fella who would ever dream of going into the women's changing areas anywhere.

Women can bring a female friend/relative to zip them up or whatever.

I didn’t say all women with short hair look like men- you’re missing my point completely.

Women are entitled to dress in a typically masculine or androgynous fashion if they wish. Many go as far as binding their breasts or taking male hormones to imitate a male look.
Some women just have masculine features quite naturally- a strong jaw, tall, broad shoulders etc.
They should be able to access women’s toilets without fear of being scrutinised by vilgilante queue members- who might accuse them of being a man. Yes we all know you can tell if you look at their hips or skin or listen to their voice. In other words- they have to prove themselves- you have to look for proof.

Im questioning whether we as women should encourage each other to confront men in our spaces? Is it the solution? How easy is that to do in reality?

Ive actually never witnessed a woman confronting a man and chasing him out of a female space although I read about it happening fairly regularly on Mumsnet and everyone applauds.

I saw a man with dc entering the cubicles in a communal toilet at a farm park recently. No one reacted.