I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

[betterchange]

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

A woman came out of one of the changing rooms whilst I was queueing and beckoned a man in. I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you should go in there, this is for women trying on underwear. The woman queried this but I stuck to my guns and the woman behind me in the queue backed me up; the man apologised and left. (It probably helped that they sounded as though English wasn't their first language so they may not have known the "rules"! I think it was a genuine misreading/mistake on their part.)

Anyway, no harm done, but it made me think - that was easy, but if it had been a very obvious man-dressed-as-a-woman, I'm far from sure that I would have felt able to speak out.

In that situation (the man-dressed-as-woman), would anyone here have said anything?

Lots of things in life are difficult. @SmileyClare Does that mean we should throw up our hands and not even try? Lockable cubicles bring a whole other raft of problems. And to be safe they would need to open directly into the shop area. The logistics of that wouldn't be easy.
It's a sad fact of life that women and girls need protection from male violence and voyeurism. And that's without even considering our right to privacy.

I’m not promoting uni sex changing areas as an ideal solution.

I can see why M and S have gone with the policy of having individual changing cubicles with lockable doors in all their stores now.
A- because it’s difficult to assign a sex to some men and women based on sight . A notice indicating “women only” would be adhered by most but difficult to police.

B-Large sections of their market are customers ( particularly the younger generations )who are overwhelmingly against any whiff of non inclusivity.
It would be industry suicide to promote segregation of trans women from women in a clothes shop.
M and S only care about profits- any political posturing is simply marketing.

So stop with the nonsense, I've gone out with plenty of sporty androgynous lesbians, a few bitches too.
A full photo would show an obvious woman maybe 5'4" with hips and bust and smooth skin,
no Adams Apple, big brow 5 o' clock
'shadow, big jaw , big height or
Cock and balls
90% of trans who are male keep their penis and testicles. So they have secondary sexual characteristics that even children recognize.

Oops I wrote butches, blast you autocorrect!

🤢

Omg. And M&S does nothing to try to patrol this? Disgusting fuckers

Goodness, how ever do single women manage to try things on, without a man to rescue them?

I have no propblem with mixed changing rooms providing they provide secure lockable cubicles within. I don't care if there is a man in the cubicle next to me trying on a pair of jeans while I'm trying on, say, a dress. But I do have a problem with "visitors' crossing the threshold when they are not trying on.

Unfortunately I lived in a cluster of US university towns with gender studies departments and medical schools; woke central .
Men who are transexual and are attracted to women want to be validated as women it gives them a sexual high.
Lesbians who reject men as sexual partners are the ultimate validation that the man in a wig is a woman. So they clustered to our local Lesbian social groups around 2010.
I also was tricked into meeting a man for a coffee date by a manipulated photo on OK Cupid back then.
Instead of a woman there was a 6' foot man in a wig and a dress. I was furious and scared.
There's more, but this answers your question.

There were gay men who were transexual and visited our group too, I guess out of LGBT or curious or to see if they passed...they were obnoxious too.

I have no problems with TWs who absolutely pass as women using the women's changing room but what are M&S supposed to do with their unicorns while they're in there?

😁

Hmm ok . You said yourself that you were “fooled once by a transexual man that looked like a short ugly middle aged woman”

Going back to the hypothetical question in the op. Would I chase a person dressed as a woman (I suspected was a man) out of a changing room queue?
No I wouldn’t. He could be an “ugly middle aged woman”. I’m not going to inspect the person’s hip bust or jaw line for characteristics.

Lots of posters seem to be promoting the idea that any man dressing as a woman is likely to be a sexual deviant with criminal intent? I’m not sure why transsexuals and perverts are being grouped together?

I refuse to live my life labouring under the belief that all men are potential sexual perverts and a threat. I would never undress on a beach, go swimming, be examined by a doctor or walk alone on the streets if I entertained this level of risk aversion.

Theres an alarmingly high percentage of young adults identifying as trans in my sons sixth form. Several have a diagnosis of autism, some are probably just fucking confused. I’m not comfortable with directing hate at them. Or suggesting we should point and jeer at them. They’re victims of trans ideology/identity politics too.

All of this wrangling over exceptions that prove the rule that men should be able to access lingerie changing rooms seems to be missing what, to me, is the central point.

5 or so years ago, I imagine many women wouldn’t have had the slightest concern about the husband helping his disabled wife, would have felt at least somewhat less disconcerted by the partner scrolling through his phone - & wouldn’t even have noticed the unusually masculine-looking woman hypothesised. There are always exceptions, outliers & variations within any social standard or convention, whether the need for a male carer to enter a female space, the odd rather thoughtless make second-opinion-giver, or the clothes & hair styles women choose!

The difference now is that the very existence of single sex spaces is at risk, because of the increasing, & sometimes enforced attempts to normalise the presence of males in them.

Of COURSE this will make some women more wary of cases they may not have questioned or even noticed previously. Of COURSE it makes them more anxious, & likely to speak up. Because, statistically, this removal of the social contract of single-sex entry only bar the odd exception itself will increase the risk of assault or voyeurism. How, realistically, could it not?

The exceptions, outliers & variations have lost that status, which protected them, & are instead regrettably subsumed into a wider threat to women’s rights & safety.

And so not only women suffer, but also others - the female in a wheelchair, the quietly committed transsexual - may be liable to encounter a resistance they wouldn’t have before.

Everyone loses out.

And cases like those being cited are used to justify the further erosion of women’s rights, which adds flames to the fire that keeps everyone losing out.

I just posted the same, in as many words, on another thread. People can argue over individual instances til the cows come home, but it’s the trends they represent that is the real issue, & these trends, for me, make women’s wariness & anxiety wholly understandable.

We need third spaces.

Very well (and rationally) explained @Catiette Im prepared to have my mind changed. Thank you.

I think some reactions (to the idea of a locked cubicle in this instance) are over the top.

Im alone in my house with a male electrician today. I don’t for a minute think he’s going to install a secret porn camera or start wanking over my knicker drawer.

Equally I would not feel uncomfortable or threatened by a man outside my locked changing room.

So would you be happy to strip to your underwear in the room next door and talk about the size and shape of your breasts and the fit of your bras in his hearing? If not, why not?

@CriticalCondition - In a locked cubicle - absolutely. Behind a flimbsy curtain - no. Conversation about bra fit, no probs at all. I'd do that in a pub in mixed company.

Thanks, @SmileyClare.

Re: locked doors, @CriticalCondition’s response is very pertinent, I think. I wasn’t going to post this precisely bc I’m such a private person, but one of the reasons I’m engaging in this chat today is actually because I was, yesterday afternoon, in a locked M&S bra-fitting cubicle trying on undies. And because, as I browsed for possibilities, a lovely sales assistant recommended a fitting. And because, despite this being long overdue, & the benefits of it to my health (purse!) & appearance at the big event I was buying for, I declined.

I declined for two, linked reasons. 1) As I’d been changing a few minutes earlier, I’d overheard the bra-fitting of a teenage girl in the adjacent cube, & the conversation was disconcertingly explicit & intimate, even for another female to overhear! 2) The changing cubicles weren’t labelled female only, & I know M&S’s policy is “inclusive” of males.

I’m sufficiently private that even the thought of being fitted by an unknown woman with other women overhearing is rather off-putting & takes a degree of resolve. I’ve only felt comfortable enough doing it in the past because of the unspoken social contract that it would only be women overhearing. Even the thought of a male I know & trust overhearing would be anathema.

That promise of privacy & dignity is gone now.

My knowledge that the probability that a male may hear every word & detail is now much, much higher than it was previously has made it proportionately harder for me to access this service - a service something recommended for my health.

This is because how a man identifies means nothing to me personally. I’ll respect his choices, but how can I (WHY should I?!) FEEL any differently MYSELF because of how HE feels? That’s impossible - his internal perspective of himself is utterly inaccessible to me as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

And on top of that, yes, there is the possibility that he may be a voyeur, that he may lie, that he may simply relish hearing my fitting as a reinforcement of his own identity. I don’t know. I CAN’T know.

I’ve lost the previous virtual certainty of privacy & dignity that made this service accessible to me.

My question was really addressed to the PP on her own in the house with the electrician. Because I was trying to make the point it's not just about safety.

StarlightLady because you make the distinction between a locked door/curtain and being alone/in a group in the pub it's clearly a safety issue for you rather than privacy or dignity. That's fine. But there are other women for whom dignity and privacy is important. Why are their feelings less important than those of the man who wants to be in the cubicle next door?

I've had a male plumber working in the house recently. He's absolutely lovely. I also don't think for a moment he would attack me or install a spy cam or rummage through my knicker drawer. But I still wouldn't want to have a conversation in his hearing about my breasts and underwear.

I do appreciate some women want the privacy (modesty) of a completely female space- including not being in ear shot of men.

I was going to post that God no- I wouldn’t give two hoots if a man overheard a bra fitting. I regularly go topless on the beach too.
However, we’re all different. Perhaps due to religion, upbringing or even trauma. I do respect that and some of these posts have made me stop and think about the importance of protecting womens spaces.

Crossed post with Catiette.

Some women are fine with men in the changing room. Others are not. They matter too and their dignity and privacy should be respected.

Thank you for sharing that, Catiette. I hope you find the right thing for your event.

Thanks for doing this, OP! 👏

If M & S returned to their socially acceptable policy of men and women's changing rooms with some mixed sex spaces for the terminally confused, then we'd go back to relying on the social contract. This allows women to know that the men who enter are those with the red flags - they don't respect women's boundaries. It wouldn't help poor shop assistants with challenging people - but it would stop many of the situations discussed in this thread.

Tall men, short men, pretty men, ugly men, young men, middle aged men,
men in trousers, men in kilts, men in dresses
Men like Eddie Izzard with painted nails and lippy or infamous fake lesbian Alex Drummond with mustache and beard
all men belong
in men's changing rooms, bathrooms, sports, etc.,
Ladies; Don't be Nice, Don't be Kind
We need to reclaim women's rights to
single sex spaces NOW

I take the points here, but I am more concerned about safety on a dark street than a changing room with staff nearby. And with M&S, they have a good exchange policy, so you can buy and try something in the privacy of your own home.

Either mixed or single sex, I don't want a flimsy curtain though. And I don't want men walking in when they are not trying anything on.

And I don't want men walking in when they are not trying anything on.

What's the difference? Can you explain? I don't understand why you would feel comfortable with a man trying on clothes but not one who is there to help his wife with zips or his opinions?

This is because how a man identifies means nothing to me personally. I’ll respect his choices, but how can I (WHY should I?!) FEEL any differently MYSELF because of how HE feels? That’s impossible - his internal perspective of himself is utterly inaccessible to me as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

This is absolutely key to the whole nonsense of the ideology.

I am not a woman because my internal perspective of myself is the same as yours. What you and I have in common, that makes us both women, is our biology.

A male who claims that what he and I have in common, that makes us both women, is our internal perspective that we are women - is deluded. The internal perspective of a woman is utterly inaccessible to him as a separate, autonomous, thinking being.

(Not so sure about the thinking)