I chased a man out of the changing rooms ----

[betterchange]

M+S, ladies'underwear section. It's all cubicles and to be fair, nowhere does it say that it is a women-only changing room, but I think it's likely to be seen as such by most users since it's in the bra-and-knicker-selling section of the shop and there are other changing rooms elsewhere!

A woman came out of one of the changing rooms whilst I was queueing and beckoned a man in. I said, I'm sorry, I don't think you should go in there, this is for women trying on underwear. The woman queried this but I stuck to my guns and the woman behind me in the queue backed me up; the man apologised and left. (It probably helped that they sounded as though English wasn't their first language so they may not have known the "rules"! I think it was a genuine misreading/mistake on their part.)

Anyway, no harm done, but it made me think - that was easy, but if it had been a very obvious man-dressed-as-a-woman, I'm far from sure that I would have felt able to speak out.

In that situation (the man-dressed-as-woman), would anyone here have said anything?

Women are entitled to dress in a typically masculine or androgynous fashion if they wish. Many go as far as binding their breasts or taking male hormones to imitate a male look
Surely if that's the case they might well expect to be considered male, and as such can hardly be surprised if their presence in a female toilet / changing room is questioned? They'd probably welcome the validation...

Whether they are intentionally looking like men or not, women can and should be challenged in women's spaces if they look like they could be men. When I was younger, I was one of those women. And yes, it is hurtful if people think you're a man when you're not, but I was happy to provide "proof" by replying...and the tension dissipated immediately they heard my voice. The hurt/embarrassment is on the men who try to get into women's facilities and the women who want to enable them.

Women, don't be embarrassed about challenging someone who looks as if they shouldn't be in a particular space. We are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety.

I don't think SmileyClare is a woman at all ...

In my 20s I had short hair and a slim boyish figure and my fashion style was British schoolboy. And yes I got called "Sir" from behind a number of times. And had a laugh.

Women understand the caution because 1 out of 3 women are sexually assaulted by MEN.

We're not going to be silent and 'kind' anymore to these men who get off transgressing our boundaries.

Well yes I’m not identifying as a man but have typically boyish figure- narrow hips small bust. I would be embarrassed if I was questioned in a queue.

There must be other women like me that don’t want to confront a man (trans or not) in public and demand they leave? Maybe I’m wrong to think mistakes could be made over the sex of a person, but I likely wouldn’t have the backing of store staff (particularly shops with neutral changing areas) or even the backing of other women.

I suppose there is no other resolution in this climate.

I mean on one hand we have women that feel threatened and intimidated by even the idea that a man might overhear them discussing their breasts, yet those same women are expected to get dressed, and confront that man , shame him and demand he leaves the area?

I mean on one hand we have women that feel threatened and intimidated by even the idea that a man might overhear them discussing their breasts, yet those same women are expected to get dressed, and confront that man , shame him and demand he leaves the area?

Yes. Why not? Depends on the area and what you feel safe doing. In the queue for the toilets, you don't need to get dressed since you are outside the cubicle. Woman A in the changing room might be too scared to say anything, Woman B might not be. But in principle, enforcing boundaries is a necessary move. You don't have to shame him. But the message has to go out loud and clear that women will enforce our boundaries.
No need to imply that women who want privacy from men are silly.

Fair enough, I can’t disagree with your counter argument @snowypeaks

. Don’t mind being challenged! I have been a bit naive.

I can’t get on board with the hate and vitriol directed at individuals though.

In principle, I agree but then look at someone like the lad my son went to school with-
22 yrs and presenting as a woman, lives with his(I mean her?) boyfriend, doesn’t cause trouble, they walk their dogs or have a drink in our local, pleasant guys.
They use the Ladies toilet in the pub, I’ve never really given it much thought until now and I don’t think any of the regulars seem bothered.

Maybe this is some "woo woo" stuff, but I feel like there's something to be said for the vibe a person is giving off.
At the end of the day, if someone is genuinely not a threat, you won't perceive them as one and won't feel the need to call it out.

I'm sure we've all here experienced that knot in the pit of your stomach when the mood in the air changes, whether it's directed at you or not.
You can kind of intuit whether someone's intent is positive, neutral or negative generally, whether that's minute body language signals or whatever, I'm no expert obviously lol

In principle, I agree but then look at someone like the lad my son went to school with-
22 yrs and presenting as a woman, lives with his(I mean her?) boyfriend, doesn’t cause trouble, they walk their dogs or have a drink in our local, pleasant guys.
They use the Ladies toilet in the pub, I’ve never really given it much thought until now and I don’t think any of the regulars seem bothered.

Sounds similar to my young friend. Both male, though. Should use male facilities. The regulars might seem unbothered but you don't know what they are thinking - even if not actually alarmed, they might have been outraged/annoyed/embarrassed but unwilling to say anything. Or some women might have avoided the establishment altogether if they'd realised. There's no difference in principle between your son's schoolfriend and Isla Bryson/Adam Graham. The reason they both need to stay out of female facilities is because they are male.

I've seen tweets by people claiming special identities (mainly female people) who make a point of using unisex facilities. One (male) changed at home before and after using the gym. Anyone with a modicum of consideration for others can find ways to live their life in a way that feels comfortable for them, while not imposing on other people. That's all we ask.

One woman's threshold for that knot in the pit of her stomach might be entirely different to another's. The woman who has experienced an assault, for example, or the woman who has been fortunate enough never to have experienced any sort of threat.

Some rather naive (or disingenuous?) comments in defence of men entering women’s spaces (including mixed sex sets of cubicles above).

Re: so-called policing - see my earlier post re. the loss of the social contract that used to suffice to keep women’s spaces private bar the odd understandable & accepted exception; policing wasn’t needed then, & a return to that convention would remove the (perceived) need for policing now; meanwhile, the addition of third spaces would offer an option for those who need it or are genuinely indifferent to mixed sex (we did it for the disabled; why not trans etc. individuals?)

Re: the assumption that someone uneasy about discussing intimate body parts in a man’s hearing would struggle to call out a man on his presence or behaviour - 1) again, the social contract used to address this by making the calling out a communal effort of common consent 2) the apparent correlation between a need for privacy of this kind & other behavioural/personality traits suggests a rather limited understanding of the very nature of privacy & dignity, & of the multitude of reasons a person may seek privacy from the opposite sex.

FWIW, for better or worse (& while I’m always safety conscious & courteous, it has sometimes led to grief!), I’m one of those who is prepared to speak up very clearly & loudly when many others don’t in all manner of contexts! 😁

You need to watch out, you are misgendering like fury here. I’m quite surprised that the lovely ‘lad’ hasn’t mentioned it to you tbh.

We all know what sex people are. There is no such thing as compelled speech (yet), thank God.

I know, I went back and tried to correct some of the pronouns too 😂

I think this is actually very true, I've served trans women in shops before and they asked to try on shoes etc in our stock room for privacy as they were worried about other people staring or making comments. I work with a number of trans individuals and none of them would ever go swimming because they feel exposed, vulnerable and it can trigger their body dysphoria, so much so that local pools have started doing trans only swimming sessions arranged through a few charities. I'd be less concerned about a trans woman in a changing room, than a random bloke in a mixed swimming pool changing room for example. I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful, there's much easier ways to go about it than living as a trans person, he can just go to any swimming pool with village changing. So I'd feel more comfortable with a trans woman in female only changing than your average man in shared changing spaces.

@ReginaRegina

women who don’t want men in their vicinity when they’re trying to try on bra and knickers are “full of themselves”?!

So @Lavender14, which is which?
I agree with you that males with genuine anxiety about their sexed bodies are a different kettle of fish to the chancers and charlatans, but every male who claims (sincerely or not) to be a woman is nevertheless male. And that is the basis on which they are excluded. There are millions of women in the world, in this country, who are not you. Their boundaries matter as much as yours. If you are happy sharing with male people, go into the unisex facilities. Allow the women who are not happy to do so, or are not permitted to do so, have somewhere to go. Catering for their needs does not prevent you from sharing with males. Go for it.

“I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful, there's much easier ways to go about it than living as a trans person”.

That’s right. One of the very easiest ever would be for him to SAY he’s a trans person or NB.

I’m not saying this is usual, common or perhaps even likely. But in a world in which predators seek long-term employment as caretakers & train for years as priests, & many stores are prepared to (or feel compelled to) accept those few words above as a passport to previously single sex spaces, logic says it WILL happen.

Safeguarding against this isn’t typically seen as moral condemnation of a particular demographic. Workers in schools face DBS checks, & men have historically accepted their exclusion from out of women’s spaces because they’re aware of the existence of bad actors.

This isn’t to reject inclusion wholesale, or disregard trans people’s needs. I’m not denying the widely recognised issue of how to accommodate them, but am rather seeking to highlight related issues that ARE sometimes denied.

Safeguarding against this isn’t typically seen as moral condemnation of a particular demographic. Workers in schools face DBS checks, & men have historically accepted their exclusion from out of women’s spaces because they’re aware of the existence of bad actors.

Absolutely correct.

There's no hatred, judgement or condemnation in seeking to keep transwomen out of women's spaces.

Those very nice transwomen posters know, who live quiet lives like anybody else? It's very nice that you know they wouldn't hurt a fly - but how does anybody else? I know my dh and ddad wouldn't hurt a fly, but how would you know that you were perfectly safe with them, if they went into women's spaces where you were in a state of undress or feeling vulnerable in any way?

(Not that they would enter women's spaces!)

I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful, there's much easier ways to go about it than living as a trans person,

I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful there's much easier ways than training for the priesthood.

I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful there's much easier ways than training as a teacher.

I honestly think if any man was to set out to be creepy and harmful there's much easier ways than training for and becoming a sports coach.

I honestly think if any man wanted to enter Female only Colleges in Cambridge in the 1970's to rape the students therein then there are much easier ways to go about it than dressing as a women to get in there.

You see where I am going with this?

Hmm interesting my post was deleted, let's just say men and transgender men have the same rates of sexual offenses.

So all men, even super special ones in dresses need to be barred from women's single sex spaces.
It's that easy.

I actually don't care if there are no TWs who may be a threat to me in a single sex space. Their presence robs me of my privacy and dignity.

Well done. It would be more difficult to find the bravery to tell a man dressed as a woman, because you know you'd be about to have a massive confrontation! However, it's vital that we all do have that confrontation when needed. So, I absolutely would.