Entitled male refused access to female changing area (despite wearing skirt)

[ACatCalledPushka]

Well done to the hotel staff. ‘trans ‘woman’ given key to the unisex changing room instead of the female changing room ‘trans woman’ not happy.

https://twitter.com/anneicoombes/status/1683090524641566721?s=46&t=5tHsrgY5T97exTqeFD4LWg

Surely in a changing room that skirt would come off, removing the claim to laydeeness?

I don't think I've ever heard of any situations where a man has gained access to women's changing rooms as a transwomen, for male sexual gratification?

Look up AGP. We're not allowed to talk about here so this message might get zapped but it's what drives many men to insist on female spaces rather than third spaces.

Are they not just confused individuals who are trying to find a reason for their confusion? I don't think I've ever heard of any situations where a man has gained access to women's changing rooms as a transwomen, for male sexual gratification? (Although I could be wrong).

Oh boy. I guess you've never read the Sex and Gender discussion board before? I think you'll find it eye opening. Yes, it happens all the time.

Out of curiosity, what do you think this person's motivation for wanting into the women's changing rooms is? Why do you think the gender neutral changing rooms wouldn't do? Do you remember the days (before 2016 or so) when you'd have had no doubt about the motives of a man who wanted into the womens' changing rooms?

We may find it deeply uncomfortable, especially if we have daughters, but I suspect these people are 'safe' - if not someone we want to share a changing room with?

If you allow any male who identifies as a woman into female only spaces then you have no idea who is ‘safe’ and who is ‘not safe’. Which is pretty much the whole point of safeguarding.

Its kind of like sending a male teacher into the girls swimming pool changing room and saying that its fine for them to be there watching the girls get changed because they aren't overly sexually gratified by it. The reality is that the vast majority of male teachers would refuse because they would understand it wasn't appropriate and the girls would be uncomfortable with it. Why on earth would you trust the motives of the few who agree to it and assume they are "safe"? Maybe they wouldnt be sexually gratified, but you would still have to question their inappropriate behaviour.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it was OK. Just that I'm not sure their key motive is male sexual gratification, which I think a PP had implied.

I don't pretend to understand their motivations, but I suspect it's more complex.

Either way, I don't want them in my/DDs changing room and I fully support the hotel's approach.

Out of interest how do you tell the difference between a man in a skirt who wants access to a woman's changing room because they are confused and a man in a skirt who wants access to a womens changing room for sexual gratification?

I get that you support the hotels approach I'm just curious how you can be so certain that this man wasnt interested in gaining access to an area where women and girls are getting changed for sexual gratification?

You seem to think a PP was wrong for implying their motive was sexual gratification. But in any other senario where a man was trying to force access to a womens changing area Im assuming you would agree sexual gratification would be a reasonable assumption of their motive. Why does them wearing a skirt make you so certain the PP is wrong in this case?

Im not suggesting all trans women wanting access to womens changing rooms are doing it for sexual gratification. But I am curious as to how you can be so certain this one wasnt.

I'm not certain at all. I just thought that maybe there is a difference between men who think they are able to 'be' women, and therefore want to use women's changing rooms to validate that, and perverts who just want to look at female bodies.

But I don't have any expertise or knowledge in this area, so am bowing out now.

Are they not just confused individuals who are trying to find a reason for their confusion? I don't think I've ever heard of any situations where a man has gained access to women's changing rooms as a transwomen, for male sexual gratification? (Although I could be wrong).

This man is not confused. Nor trying to find a reason for their confusion. There's a thread on here called 'it will never happen resource thread'. It's currently near the top of the threads list. Have a Read of that and see if you still think the same way.

also read up on Autogynephilia. Then take into consideration that this person was annoyed that despite knowing they don't pass as female deemed the fact that a skirt was supposed to give entry to the magical lady spaces. Then consider the safety aspect again.

If a man claiming to be a man wanted in to the women's changing rooms you would see it for what it was a man getting his kicks from either watching women undress or forcing women to watch him undress.

Why does this mans very special totally unprovable internal feelings mean he must be safe? He's still just a man wanting access to single sex female spaces where women are vulnerable and in a state of undress.

Why wasn't he happy to just use the unisex facilities? Why was it so important he access the women's?

Don’t bow out, @Teenagehorrorbag ! I’ve learnt so much from threads like these.

Im afraid I dont see a massive difference between men who want to use womens discomfort to validate their feelings without the womens consent, and men wanting to look at womens bodies without the womens consent

Both are using the women without any concern for them. Just because the end goal might be marginally different doesn't mean it's any less distasteful to be used with no option to opt out.

You've just reminded me of one of my primary school teachers. He was always trying to watch the girls get changed at swimming lessons (we had no cubicles just had to get changed in the open with all the other girls). The same male teacher also used to make us lie on the floor in the gym with our eyes closed whilst he walked around playing with the hard on in his track suit bottoms.

In my opinion men who want to see women and girls in a state of undress and/or vulnerable are perverts, regardless of how they decide to identify.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it was OK. Just that I'm not sure their key motive is male sexual gratification, which I think a PP had implied. I don't pretend to understand their motivations, but I suspect it's more complex.

you’re partly right! Autogynephilia, if that is what is happening here (forum rules don’t allow us to make assumptions about individuals) is a complex way of seeking sexual gratification. It’s more difficult to understand than straightforward voyeuristic/exhibitionistic behaviours. (Though it is very common for all those fetishes to co-occur in the same person.)

but the important point is that it is still about sexual gratification.

OMG that teacher 🤮🤮🤮

Here’s a really great clip of Helen Joyce explaining autogynephilia. Yes, it’s more complicated (sometimes) than “man wants to look at naked women.” But it’s still sexual.

https://twitter.com/Rob_ThaBuilder/status/1682082594437865479

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia I know, he gave off, to me, sexual predator vibes from the very first moment, the rest of the children thought he was Mr bloody wonderful. He didn't last very long at all, I wonder if some of the teaching staff also picked up on the kiddy fiddler vibes.

I’d like to say for the 1000th time just how brilliant Helen Joyce is. So articulate and honest! She says in the long interview that she hates having to say “penis” all the time, it’s not how she ever envisaged her future, but if that’s what she needs to do then that’s what she’ll continue to do.

Jeez, @Boiledbeetle - what a creep.

If you come back, Teenagehorrorbag, which I hope you do, maybe this will help explain - a short video from a man who does the whole "dresses as a woman" thing but is clear that males should not be welcomed into women's single sex spaces and is particularly concerned that women should just stop the misguided "be kind" schtick:

"CLIP: The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick"

Totally agree with you. I love her

They shouldn’t be so angry and entitled but I do feel sorry for them

That's toddlers you're thinking of, when they go red in the face because mummy said, "No!" and they can't get their own way and it looks like they are going to hurt themselves thrashing around on the floor.