DM -Italy erases names of gay mothers from birth certs

[DustyLee123]

Can’t do links. Story about removing one mother from the certs where there’s two female names .

Apologies for the title, it sounds like they are removing any gay female names, but it’s a direct quote from the DM headline. Feel free to get it changed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12302509/Italy-erases-names-gay-mothers-childrens-birth-certificates-crackdown.html

I’m not sure how I feel about this, actually. I thought, until very recently, that a birth certificate was a factual document which listed either one or both biological parents. Obviously occasionally the father listed might not be the biological dad, either by accident or design, but it hadn’t crossed my mind that it was possible to list a parent who demonstratively was not a biological parent.

I would be interested to know when this change in birth certificates occurred. So many of the “rights” that we are supposed to get up in arms about when they are removed are “rights” that I didn’t even know existed and don’t make much sense to me.

And yes, I absolutely support the rights of lesbian women to be mothers and also for them to be able to adopt the children of their spouse, or for it to be somehow registered that they have full parental rights and so on. I’m just not sure that registration on the birth certificate is the right way to go about it.

And that isn’t because I am anti-lesbian. If a man and woman are together, but they know the man isn’t the child’s biological father, I wouldn’t expect him to be put on the birth certificate. Obviously that’s much more open to abuse, but that doesn’t mean we should change the function of the birth certificate more generally, which appears to have already happened.

I personally feel that it should be the woman who birthed the baby, plus a male who says/is the father. I think it’s so important for this to be factually accurate.
But I don’t agree with changing sex on passports etc.
It should be for the greater good/security of the population, you shouldn’t be able to change your basic identity so easily.

For fucks’ sake. You are condoning the erasing of lesbian mothers from birth certificates? Apply some critical thinking.

I'm torn, I thought there would be a birth certificate that belongs to the child to show who their actual biological parents are, and adoption certificate to show who their parents are?

I think this could all be solved by having 3 spaces for ´mother’ and two for ´father’ that /« should all be filled in.
So genetic mother + father
Gestational mother
Legal parents.
Genetic parents part could contain things like ´donor XYZ registration through X fertility clinic. Genetic father could be left blank if he’s fucked off and left his partner pregnant/was a one night stand and not interested etc - to be filled in if and when a DNA test happens or accepts he is the father for CMS etc.

@DustyLee123 as in, you think a sperm donor’s name should be on it over their actual second parent, the one who will raise them?

Parenting goes beyond gametes. I also think there are probably way more than we think whose father on the birth certificate is not the biological father anyway, so how would your system of lesbian partner erasure help with that?

So for a lesbian married couple they would always both be listed as the legal parents.

I don’t think gay couples are permitted to adopt children in Italy, so putting both partners on the birth certificate is the only way they can both have parental rights over the child. If this is taken away and if something happens to the birth mother, the other parent will have no say in what happens to their child, who could be placed with relatives of the birth mother.

The mother that did not give birth, and actually has no place on the birth certificate, any more than a man who did not contribute his sperm

The letter from the state prosecutor informed them that the inclusion of the name of Michela (who is not the biological mother of their daughter, Giulia) on the birth certificate was 'contrary to public order'. This move means only the recognised biological mother has parenting rights, such as for schooling and healthcare, and if she was to die, her children can be handed to her relatives or taken away into the state's care

this is sad though, surely they can adopt?

The trouble is that the birth certificate has always been a document certifying the circumstances of someone's birth and the people who are going to be the parents now, which is complicated now those two categories don't have to involve exactly the same people anymore. All they need to do is add slightly to the birth certificate, have details of who the biological mother and father (if given) are and then also who the 'actual' parents are, whether that's two mothers, two fathers or whatever. Then the certificate can still fulfill all purposes.

There shouldn’t be two women listed as mothers, or two men listed as fathers, no matter the context.

It’s a document reflecting reality, not adults’ feelings ffs.

I know a couple one f to m and one f who used a sperm donor - both parents are on the birth certificate - which makes a legal document a lie surely?
I would’ve thought the birth certificate would be true and an adoption certificates issued for the father.

This is UK

I don't understand what the point of any birth certificate is if it doesn't list the owner of the egg and sperm that created that child.

If it can just be anyone not biologically related then it ceases to be a document that is actually certifying anything. And will be worthless for the descendents of the child trying to trace back their history.

Still, it will give those companies that do dna searches a bit more money in the future so that's great.

I think applying critical thinking is exactly what the OP has done.

You are being reactionary to something that on the face of it appears to be very cruel and unfair and homophobic.

But actually, a child is not biologically created by two women and it is a legal falsehood to suggest otherwise.

It is absolutely correct however that the birth mother is named on the birth certificate and an additional adoption certificate registered at the same time and conferring the same rights as the biological mother, (or father would have for the child in a heterosexual relationship) is provided to the other woman in the partnership.

I would be out on the streets campaigning if lesbian women were being prevented from adopting and having parental rights in these scenarios, but I think allowing legal falsehoods when they wouldn't be allowed in other scenarios, although the kind and fluffy thing to do in theory, is a very slippery slope.

Men and women are not interchangeable for sexual and reproductive purposes. Pretending they are has given massive fuel to the trans madness.

Then this is where change needs to take place, and campaign efforts should be directed, not creating birth registration documents that are false.

That would seem to be the obvious solution, as the judge in the Freddie McConnell case here in the UK made clear the purpose of a birth certificate is to record the child’s birth accurately, a mother is not the father in Freddie’s case.

A pp said that gay parents are not allowed to adopt in Italy, which if true is probably what leads gay parents to take the matter into their own hands. Presumably the registrar ( or equivalent) was aware of the law and chose to ignore it to complete the registration. Was this done deliberately to challenge the law ? I wonder if and how far they will take it on appeal - haven’t read the DM link.

It's a 'birth' certificate showing the details
someone's birth and not a document showing who has parental responsibility. These are different things. Until relatively recently in this country an unmarried father had to get a parental responsibility order. My partner had to do this for our DC. The question is, whether they have such a thing in Italy. Without it, gay parents are being denied their rights and cannot fully participate in raising their children.

but a birth cert is a reflection of biological parenting. Even if you're adopted you get another birth cert.

Birth certs should be accurate to start with. Relationships don't hinge on a birth cert though.

Right? I mean, this is how we ended up with the GRA when we should have got gay marriage

Don’t adopted children have a birth certificate with adopted parents names? Is is not about parental responsibility rather than biology? This is what I thought, I could be wrong.

They should just put both categories - legal parents and biological parents on the birth certificate and leave blank if unknown. People should have a right to know where we came from and not be misled about family history for medical purposes if nothing else.

I used an egg donor and my husbands sperm. I grew and birthed my babies. I am listed as the mother on the birth certificate. Should I not be?