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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DM -Italy erases names of gay mothers from birth certs

486 replies

DustyLee123 · 16/07/2023 08:02

Can’t do links. Story about removing one mother from the certs where there’s two female names .

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Evieanne · 16/07/2023 15:56

Whattheactualwhatnow · 16/07/2023 15:54

But isn’t the birth certificate intended not to show who is going to raise the child (this can change during the course of a child’s life!) but to be a legal record of who the child’s biological parents are (this can’t change).

Exactly the birth certificate is to show who the biological parents are. Which is why a lot of people buy their ancestors birth certificates to pin point ancestry and who long lost family members are. They’re invaluable and should be correct.

Ketzele · 16/07/2023 15:58

Well, it comes down to what are birth certificates for?

My adopted daughter has a birth certificate which names me and my (same sex) ex as her parents. Children of married heterosexuals will automatically have the husband listed as father, even where conception is via sperm donor.

So in the UK I don't think there is any legal assumption that a birth certificate denotes genetic parentage so much as legal parentage.

In the Italian situation, at least one of the non-biological mothers supplied the egg, so she has at least equal claim to the sperm donor.

On a wider point, this thread - along with many others atm - is a worrying illustration of how much kneejerk homophobia is creeping back because of the reaction to gender ideology nonsense. It's real backlash stuff and people need to be more careful.

Drenton · 16/07/2023 15:59

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Evieanne · 16/07/2023 16:02

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Some lesbian women do reciprocal IVF. So in these cases the egg producer is the other parent who hasn’t given birth. My solution would solve it because you could make this very clear by adding under “pr other details” the name of the woman who isn’t the biological mother but has given birth to this baby

Evieanne · 16/07/2023 16:03

Ketzele · 16/07/2023 15:58

Well, it comes down to what are birth certificates for?

My adopted daughter has a birth certificate which names me and my (same sex) ex as her parents. Children of married heterosexuals will automatically have the husband listed as father, even where conception is via sperm donor.

So in the UK I don't think there is any legal assumption that a birth certificate denotes genetic parentage so much as legal parentage.

In the Italian situation, at least one of the non-biological mothers supplied the egg, so she has at least equal claim to the sperm donor.

On a wider point, this thread - along with many others atm - is a worrying illustration of how much kneejerk homophobia is creeping back because of the reaction to gender ideology nonsense. It's real backlash stuff and people need to be more careful.

My other post explains how you can solve this without any issues and wouldn’t cause homophobia as it would be using current UK laws to keep PR responsibility in tact but it would be presented differently

WallaceinAnderland · 16/07/2023 16:05

Birth certificates should be based on reality.

onlytherain · 16/07/2023 16:05

@Campingsuperstar We only have the original birth certificate naming the birth (genetic) parents and an adoption certificate naming us as legal parents.

In case of some adoptions, there are additional complications, eg. we changed our children's names. Since birth certificates remain unchanged, they show my children's former names.

I would apply the same logic to all other types of parents (gay, donor, etc.). In my view, birth documents should be a correct record of a child's genetic heritage. Legal parentage should be recorded on a separate document.

TheSeaDoesntKnowMyName · 16/07/2023 16:10

grassverge · 16/07/2023 09:22

I used an egg donor and my husbands sperm. I grew and birthed my babies. I am listed as the mother on the birth certificate. Should I not be?

I was just thinking about this.

I dont know what the answer is, technically you're not genetically related? And it is a record of genetics, such a difficult question to answer

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:12

A birth certificate should contain the biological parents names only - mother (who gives birth) & father (where known). No other name should be on there.

It's nothing to do with homophobia or anything else and entirely to do with a biological recording of the facts of the birth.

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:17

Sleepygrumpyandnothappy · 16/07/2023 10:28

Birth certificates are not and never have been a record of biological origins. Children of a heterosexual marriage have always been recorded as the children of the husband even if that is not biologically the case.

A birth certificate is a record that a child has been born and who their parents are. A non gestational mother is a valid parent. An anonymous donor is not.

They're really not In biological terms.

Elsiebear90 · 16/07/2023 16:18

nothingcomestonothing · 16/07/2023 15:50

I guess the state benefits from knowing who the father is for purposes of child support, inheritance, preventing half siblings from inadvertently procreating. Who the bio parents are matters for all those things, rather than who the raising the child parents are. And children do have a right to inherit even from a completely uninvolved parent, and to be financially supported by the same parents while a child (hollow laugh on that one in practice).

I wasn't saying a stepdad needs to adopt a partners DC, certainly not for 'male protection'. But a man raising a child as his own who isn't the bio father can do that to ensure security for the child. Like your previous example of taking the child to school or giving consent for medical treatment, practical stuff that the parents raising the child need, and which aren't to do with biology. I think a step dad who partnered the mum after the child was conceived shouldn't be on the BC, that's just as untrue as naming two same sex parents as birth parents in my view. And yes I do think that a woman who birthed a baby in a surrogacy arrangement should be named on the BC, for the same reason.

As I said, I think that gay families are being screwed over here, they started families under one system and are now being forced out of legal recognition of those families with no alternative eg adoption or court orders in place. That's unfair and is punishing people who were abiding by the law at the time. But legal fictions is how we got the GRA when we should have got gay marriage. Legal fudging leads to unintended consequences. As a PP said, 'as the kick back of the populace against the TQ smash and grab raids starts, there go LGB rights with them. Thanks for that TQ.'

I get wanting your parental relationship to be reflected on the paperwork - I'm an adopter. I'm not on my DCs BC, but I'm their mother. So are the same sex parents raising their children they didn't give birth to.

I don’t know how many times people need to keep repeating this on here, but the birth certificate does not list two women as mothers, there is one mother (the woman who gave birth, regardless of whether her egg was used), the other woman is documented as a legal parent. It is very clear that only one woman gave birth and that one woman is the registered mother. There is no “pretending” or “lying” that a child can be created by two women or two women can give birth to one child. The BC states there is one mother and another woman is the legal parent (not mother), so what you are defending is the removal of parental rights for women who are parents and who may actually be the biological mother of that child in many cases.

Stop blaming lesbians for GR and TR issues by incorrectly stating they started it all by campaigning for “fictions”, there is nothing fictitious about a woman being registered as a parent of a child when they are one. Lesbians are quite aware you cannot have two biological mothers of a child and BC demonstrate that by having a separate mother and parent category for each woman.

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:18

hangonsnoopy · 16/07/2023 10:51

A birth certificate is a record of a child's birth, not of their conception.

We don't allow people who are going to raise the child to be listed at birth rather than the birth mother because that aids in the trafficking, sexual abuse and exploitation of women and children.

We do allow the mother to register the birth without naming the father because in countries where mothers are not allowed to do this millions of children go unregistered and are stateless and without basic human rights as a consequence. It is a woman's human right to register her child's birth and pass on her nationality without the consent or presence of a male.

The West has become really selfish and inhumane in constantly putting their own concerns and wants over the consequences for women and children globally.

Again, completely agree with this!

SBHon · 16/07/2023 16:21

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:12

A birth certificate should contain the biological parents names only - mother (who gives birth) & father (where known). No other name should be on there.

It's nothing to do with homophobia or anything else and entirely to do with a biological recording of the facts of the birth.

One woman may have given birth but what if it was the other woman’s egg they had carried with?

Also, is a birth certificate only to do with who is genetically linked to the child (in which case of the above situation the woman who gave birth wouldn’t be listed?) or is it also to do with who has legal parental responsibility at birth?

In an ideal world surely all the information can be recorded.

Ketzele · 16/07/2023 16:26

Same sex adoption is not the answer here (though it is the answer to some other questions!) Lesbian non-biological mothers are not equivalent to stepfathers. Stepfathers who adopt are replacing a biological father; there is clearly a careful process required, including the quality of his parenting and the views of the biological father. Lesbian co-parents are not replacing sperm donors.

The correct comparison is with heterosexual men who have become fathers via sperm donation. In the UK, a heterosexual couple who use a sperm donor do not have to go through the lengthy and costly process of adoption. Why should lesbian couples have to? Why shouldn't a lesbian be listed as a co-parent alongside the mother from the very start? It's not a lie, it's not claiming she gave birth.

In the end, of course, we will probably need to rework all kinds of documentation to be accurate and useful. But right now, in Italy, the potential risks of keeping these lesbian mothers on birth certificates is far, far outweighed by the damage of removing them.

onlytherain · 16/07/2023 16:26

@Ketzele If your daughter is adopted, then I would be surprised if you had a "birth certificate" naming you and your wife as parents. My (adopted) children have their original birth certificate which names their birth parents, and a "Certified Copy of an Entry" into the adoption register which names me and my partner. I have just realised that we could also have a new birth certificate which would not name any parents. The certificates look like this (scroll to the end of the document):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjt0JbEwJOAAxUkxQIHHTaaCDQQFnoECA4QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F800942%2FNote_for_parents_Mar_2019__4_.pdf&usg=AOvVaw04u4upSFVIUj8Tmk5p51B6&opi=89978449

I agree with you that the Italian government's motive is probably homophobia. However, I think it is possible to take the view that birth certificates should reflect reality without being homophobic.

I think no matter what the parental set up is (gay/straight/donor/...), birth certificates should reflect the child's genetic make up. That includes my family. I am not named on my children's birth certificate, because I am not their biological parent. That is the reality.

https://www.google.com/url?cd=&esrc=s&opi=89978449&q=&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F800942%2FNote_for_parents_Mar_2019__4_.pdf&usg=AOvVaw04u4upSFVIUj8Tmk5p51B6&ved=2ahUKEwjt0JbEwJOAAxUkxQIHHTaaCDQQFnoECA4QAw

Drenton · 16/07/2023 16:28

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nothingcomestonothing · 16/07/2023 16:32

Elsiebear90 · 16/07/2023 16:18

I don’t know how many times people need to keep repeating this on here, but the birth certificate does not list two women as mothers, there is one mother (the woman who gave birth, regardless of whether her egg was used), the other woman is documented as a legal parent. It is very clear that only one woman gave birth and that one woman is the registered mother. There is no “pretending” or “lying” that a child can be created by two women or two women can give birth to one child. The BC states there is one mother and another woman is the legal parent (not mother), so what you are defending is the removal of parental rights for women who are parents and who may actually be the biological mother of that child in many cases.

Stop blaming lesbians for GR and TR issues by incorrectly stating they started it all by campaigning for “fictions”, there is nothing fictitious about a woman being registered as a parent of a child when they are one. Lesbians are quite aware you cannot have two biological mothers of a child and BC demonstrate that by having a separate mother and parent category for each woman.

How is this problem not solved by the non birth mother adopting the child at birth and getting an adoption certificate naming both the mothers as the child's legal parents? I am not defending the removal of parental rights, those could be secured by adoption. Birth certificates aren't for recording who intends to raise a child, they are a record of a child's birth. Not of the origin of the egg, of their birth.

If Italy had same sex adoption, would you be happy with this, or would you still want both women to be named as parents on the BC? And if so, why?

I am not blaming lesbians for the legal fictions which give us the GRA and I never said lesbians campaigned for that, why would they? But legal fictions made with good intentions to help a small number of people live their private lives have ended up with huge detrimental consequences for all of us. I'm not in favour of any legal fictions for that reason.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 16:34

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:17

They're really not In biological terms.

They really are in practical terms! Both mothers who are raising a child should have rights and duties regarding that child. A sperm donor who may not even be aware that he is a father should not.

MalagaNights · 16/07/2023 16:34

I'm fed up with attempts to discuss how we centre children's needs being labelled as homophobic or transphobic.

I think we need to start calling anything which doesn't prioritise children above adults as childphobic.

GiraffeDoor · 16/07/2023 16:38

I'm confused about the law in the UK. For a child who is donor conceived, is there no mention of this at all on their birth certificate?

I know that by law donor conceived people now have the right to some basic information when they turn 18. And I know that gay couples aren't allowed to do random sperm "mixing" for IVF - they have to know which of them is the biological father. But technically could a parent just never tell the child they were donor conceived, and that child could live their whole life never knowing there was information out there that they were legally entitled to request?

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:39

I agree @MalagaNights - so much in this area is around what the adults want and expect the children to live with the consequences, even when it's known to be detrimental to them.

@Quisisana whoever raises the children can change through a child's lifetime. That is entirely separate to the biological reality of who has given birth to the child.

I often think, 'just because we can, doesn't mean we should'.

In my opinion, we're going to see a lot of seriously messed up adults in the next couple of decades due to the actions of very selfish adults now, putting their own needs ahead of what's right for the children.

Elsiebear90 · 16/07/2023 16:39

nothingcomestonothing · 16/07/2023 16:32

How is this problem not solved by the non birth mother adopting the child at birth and getting an adoption certificate naming both the mothers as the child's legal parents? I am not defending the removal of parental rights, those could be secured by adoption. Birth certificates aren't for recording who intends to raise a child, they are a record of a child's birth. Not of the origin of the egg, of their birth.

If Italy had same sex adoption, would you be happy with this, or would you still want both women to be named as parents on the BC? And if so, why?

I am not blaming lesbians for the legal fictions which give us the GRA and I never said lesbians campaigned for that, why would they? But legal fictions made with good intentions to help a small number of people live their private lives have ended up with huge detrimental consequences for all of us. I'm not in favour of any legal fictions for that reason.

What is the advantage of making someone adopt a child they had with their wife using a donor when they can just be named as a legal parent on the BC? If you want the BC to list the genetic origins of a child then that’s a whole different argument, but I cannot see a single advantage to what you’re suggesting.

If as you say BC are just about recording the birth then when even record the father? They are clearly about parental rights as well as recording who gave birth, hence, you can record a man as the father even if a donor is used.

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 16:40

The modern use of donor gametes doesn’t change the purpose or intention of birth certificates. They are supposed to be identity documents, identifying who a person is and who they are the offspring of, particularly the mother.

The fact that gamete donation confuses things now, doesn’t change the purpose or intention of a birth certificate - to now mean documenting ‘those with parental responsibility’. The problem is that people have raced ahead with gamete donation, not really considering the impact upon considerations such as who should be documented on the birth certificate as the mother and the father.

I believe a child and later adult is entitled to have a clear and accurate record of who they are and who their parents are, so in the case of donor gametes, this will require extra names on the birth certificate. However, I believe that the child is also entitled to some privacy and not have to divulge the complex and unusual circumstances of their conception and parenthood every time they need to show their birth certificate, so they should be entitled to something like an adoption certificate, in addition to this complex birth certificate.

Superdupes · 16/07/2023 16:44

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:12

A birth certificate should contain the biological parents names only - mother (who gives birth) & father (where known). No other name should be on there.

It's nothing to do with homophobia or anything else and entirely to do with a biological recording of the facts of the birth.

I agree with this. But it should also be possible for someone to legally adopt from birth so that in a lesbian couple if the mother died in childbirth for example then the child would legally belong to the other mum.

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:46

I completely agree @Superdupes