Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DM -Italy erases names of gay mothers from birth certs

486 replies

DustyLee123 · 16/07/2023 08:02

Can’t do links. Story about removing one mother from the certs where there’s two female names .

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ToBeOrNotToBee · 16/07/2023 12:32

The rise of the right (a perfectly normal reaction to mass migration and govt after govt failing to control it) just doing what the right do.

Elsiebear90 · 16/07/2023 12:44

BlessedKali · 16/07/2023 12:31

could another woman, a friend of the mothers put her name on the birth certificate also? - no.

could a man who is not the father put his name on the birth certificate? - not legally, no.

can anyone other than the biooligcal mother and father out their name on the birth certificate? - no.

clearly the birth certificate is for biological parents, and biology determines the need for 1 male and 1 female.

So it isn't lesbophobic because it isn't excluding lesbian partner/parents whilst including others.

what IS lesbophobic is allowing another man to adopt the child, but not another woman.

In the case of heterosexual couples using a sperm donor they absolutely can put the husband/partner on the birth certificate as the father. If a woman uses a donated egg she is put on the birth certificate as the mother, so what you’ve written is incorrect. In lesbian couples the woman who hasn’t given birth, even if her egg is used is listed as the parent not the mother. It is not possible to have two mothers on a birth certificate, there is one mother (the one who gives birth) and the other woman is listed as a parent, so not really sure what people are objecting to unless they disagree with a woman being registered as a legal parent of a child she parents.

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 13:09

can anyone other than the biooligcal mother and father put their name on the birth certificate?

Yes- and men have been able to do this for as long as BCs have existed. A man who is married to a mother who gives birth can put his name on the BC in any circumstance, even if for example the mother used a sperm donor in a clinic with absolutely everyone in their lives including multiple medical professionals very well aware that he has no genetic link whatsoever to that child. The Italian government is saying a married lesbian can’t do that.

clearly the birth certificate is for biological parents, and biology determines the need for 1 male and 1 female

BCs are not about biology with the one exception of the biology of the woman who gestates and gives birth. BCs are social documents, they have never been genetic DNA-based documents.

Plus if BCs were about biology, given that men only contribute DNA and nothing else to the child since men can’t gestate children, then the lesbian mothers should both be on the BC when the baby is genetically from one mum’s egg, and the other mum carried the baby and gave birth. Plus the sperm donor named on BC too because of their biological link? Even though they will have no dealings whatsoever with the child?

I’d say that a BC like that isn’t practical or respectful of children or parents and it is also not what the Italian government are doing. They don’t care about biology, just about homophobically trying to replace the mother who hasn’t given birth with a man’s name (or I guess possibly no name?) regardless of that man’s lack of any parent relationship with the child. Regardless of the wife/other mum’s daily relationship with their child. Because the government want to punish same-sex couples and their kids.

It’s an awful thing to do and really I hope that lesbian couples in Italy campaign against this and successfully sue the Italian government in the European Court.

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 13:11

X post with you ElsieBear and I agree.

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 13:24

Yes- and men have been able to do this for as long as BCs have existed. A man who is married to a mother who gives birth can put his name on the BC in any circumstance, even if for example the mother used a sperm donor in a clinic with absolutely everyone in their lives including multiple medical professionals very well aware that he has no genetic link whatsoever to that child. The Italian government is saying a married lesbian can’t do that.

But outside of sperm donation via IVF, you can't just pick who you want the father to be can you? If you know that the man you are married to isn't the biological father of your child and you put his name on the birth certificate regardless that would be falsifying a legal document.

nothingcomestonothing · 16/07/2023 13:26

I’d like to strip it back to the question of, why is it of any benefit to the children born by donor conception to married lesbian couples, for the Italian government to take away their other mother from being recorded on that child’s birth certificate?

The only benefit is that the BC states biological reality. You could argue that that is more to benefit the state than the individual child maybe. This being the sex and gender board, I think we're all keenly aware of the potential consequences of allowing feelings to replace biology on legal documents.

Please someone explain to me why you think their other mother should not be on their BC? This the other mother who is also picking the child up from school, making medical decisions about them etc etc and who will continue to always be the child’s other mother even if they were to divorce from the mum in future?

But you can say that about a step father who does all those things, has raised the child as his own from birth and would always be thier dad if he and the mum divorced. That step father isn't and shouldn't be on the BC, but should and is able in the UK to adopt the DC and take on parental rights and responsibilities. If Italy allowed same sex couples to do the same, I think that would be better than knowingly putting non birth parents on a BC.

Posters who are wanting BCs with full genetic disclosure- a very risky to children and women position to be advocating for- please bear in mind that the mum who did not give birth, whom some of you are arguing has no right to be on the BC, may be the child’s genetic mother, if the lesbian couple used her egg in IVF with the donor sperm.

Donors of gametes arenotparents in the eyes of the law which is why they are not identified on the BC. That’s a different question.

I agree BCs are not for laying out genetic information, they are a legal record of birth.

I feel as though I might need to state for the avoidance of anyone’s doubt that parents who give each other gametes to have a baby together arenotdonors, they are parents, before anyone tries to suggest that normal egg donation rules should be applied to lesbian couples transferring eggs between themselves.

Emotionally no, but legally yes they are. A birth mother is the birth mother regardless of who the egg donor is, I can't see a way of changing that legally or practically, no matter how much people might want it in their own circumstances. It's not that different to the transman who wanted to be named as father on the child's BC on that score. Donors aren't parents and I can't see how we can have an exception to that.

I can’t see any non-lesbophobic reason why any of this explicit discrimination by the Italian government benefits the children of lesbian couples or lesbian couples themselves, or indeed would benefit wider society. So it’s a shock to see so many posts thinking this is a good move.

The Italian government's ideology behind this absolutely is lesbophobic, no argument from me there. They let same sex couples go into parenting on the basis that they'd both be on the BC, then took that away with no other option to replace it eg adoption, parental rights order etc. That was cruel and unfair on the families affected by a decision made for political point scoring. But I think that campaigning for same sex adoption is a better solution overall than campaigning for the right to lie on a legal document.

ZickZack · 16/07/2023 13:30

DustyLee123 · 16/07/2023 08:41

I personally feel that it should be the woman who birthed the baby, plus a male who says/is the father. I think it’s so important for this to be factually accurate.
But I don’t agree with changing sex on passports etc.
It should be for the greater good/security of the population, you shouldn’t be able to change your basic identity so easily.

My friend (female) is married to a woman. They have a baby together. It's friend's egg, but wife carried. Raising baby together. Should she really be left out of birth certificate and thus give up the rights to her biological child she is raising? I don't think that's fair...

viques · 16/07/2023 13:35

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 13:24

Yes- and men have been able to do this for as long as BCs have existed. A man who is married to a mother who gives birth can put his name on the BC in any circumstance, even if for example the mother used a sperm donor in a clinic with absolutely everyone in their lives including multiple medical professionals very well aware that he has no genetic link whatsoever to that child. The Italian government is saying a married lesbian can’t do that.

But outside of sperm donation via IVF, you can't just pick who you want the father to be can you? If you know that the man you are married to isn't the biological father of your child and you put his name on the birth certificate regardless that would be falsifying a legal document.

In the UK you can’t put any random name on a birth certificate, even if you are married to another man if you are not married to the person who you want to name as father then they would have to accompany you to the registration,

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 13:43

viques · 16/07/2023 13:35

In the UK you can’t put any random name on a birth certificate, even if you are married to another man if you are not married to the person who you want to name as father then they would have to accompany you to the registration,

What I am saying is outside of IVF you can't name someone you know not to be the actual biological father on a birth certificate. You might mistakenly name the wrong man but if you do it on purpose you are breaking the law.

SBHon · 16/07/2023 13:43

Men should not be registered as mothers neither should women who did not give birth.
@OneMorePlant They aren’t. For married lesbians in the UK who used a clinic to conceive the partner who didn’t give birth is listed as ‘parent’ not ‘mother’.

Also it’s more complex than that isn’t it. If one of the women used the other’s egg, who should be listed as ‘mother’ in your opinion?

If a heterosexual couple used an egg donor or a sperm donor, who should be listed?

Tontostitis · 16/07/2023 13:50

In the case of egg or sperms donor both of those could be registered on a birth certificate and if we put the child first should be. In the specific case of egg donor to wife then that can be recorded on the adoption certificate. All of these center the child not the adult. We should be campaigning for all this to become law. And Italy is instigating a homophobic attack masquerading as a child welfare issue but that doesn't alter the basic facts that a birth certificate is and should be a factual record.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 13:53

I think this is awful. I really don't see why certificates can't be issued with "birth mother" and "other parent" categories. However, I think this is also part of a crackdown on surrogacy which is illegal but has been a bit of a grey area until recently.

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 14:09

outside of sperm donation via IVF, you can't just pick who you want the father to be can you? If you know that the man you are married to isn't the biological father of your child and you put his name on the birth certificate regardless that would be falsifying a legal document

Yes you absolutely can Signalbox unless the husband formally objects at the time of birth registration, or later it is challenged and if the assumption of the child of the marriage is formally legally disproved involving DNA tests and a judge. BCs not genetic documents.

SBHon · 16/07/2023 14:10

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 13:53

I think this is awful. I really don't see why certificates can't be issued with "birth mother" and "other parent" categories. However, I think this is also part of a crackdown on surrogacy which is illegal but has been a bit of a grey area until recently.

That’s exactly what they say. So for a lesbian couple in the UK (who are married and conceived at a clinic) their child’s birth certificate has a space for ‘mother’ and a space for ‘parent’. Then they have additional documentation about the sperm donor.

LovePoppy · 16/07/2023 14:15

MichelleScarn · 16/07/2023 08:48

I'm torn, I thought there would be a birth certificate that belongs to the child to show who their actual biological parents are, and adoption certificate to show who their parents are?

Most adopted children where I am do not have the original birth certificate.

Even now, I can apply for mine, but if either parent put a block on it I have no rights to it. Not until a year after the person who blocked it dies. How would I know when they died if I don’t know who they are??

all that to say, I have issues with what it seems italy doing with this.

gogomoto · 16/07/2023 14:16

It's not beyond the wit of governments to be able to produce a birth certificate (factual record of known biological p

gogomoto · 16/07/2023 14:17

Too soon, record of biological parents then a certificate of registered parents or a less clunky name with non biological parents registered with parental authority

purpleros · 16/07/2023 14:20

I think children need to know who both their biological parents are. Birth certificates should be factual. A separate document to record the people with parental responsibility could be drawn up for non bio
parents who have responsibility

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 14:23

wonderstuff · 16/07/2023 09:16

Don’t adopted children have a birth certificate with adopted parents names? Is is not about parental responsibility rather than biology? This is what I thought, I could be wrong.

No, a birth certificate is a reflection and record of the precise circumstances surrounding the birth of a child. Even if you are adopted, your original birth certificate remains intact, and, at least, will name your biological mother - even if the father remains un-named or un-known.

SBHon · 16/07/2023 14:23

purpleros · 16/07/2023 14:20

I think children need to know who both their biological parents are. Birth certificates should be factual. A separate document to record the people with parental responsibility could be drawn up for non bio
parents who have responsibility

Or put it all on the same document? That seems to make the most sense.

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 14:27

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 14:09

outside of sperm donation via IVF, you can't just pick who you want the father to be can you? If you know that the man you are married to isn't the biological father of your child and you put his name on the birth certificate regardless that would be falsifying a legal document

Yes you absolutely can Signalbox unless the husband formally objects at the time of birth registration, or later it is challenged and if the assumption of the child of the marriage is formally legally disproved involving DNA tests and a judge. BCs not genetic documents.

I'm not talking about assumptions though. I'm talking about a situation where a woman KNOWS that the person she is registering as the child's father is not in fact the child's biological father. To do this is to lie on a legal document and is illegal.

Meezer · 16/07/2023 14:34

McConnell legal case judge's comments may be relevant:
https://twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1616733253494259714
Cots group also wrote about related issues:childrenoftransitioners.org/2023/04/10/paperwork/

Agree with posters above BC is for the child to know who gave birth to them and who they are genetically related to- it's a basic human need. Those with parental responsibility can be recorded too but the BC is for the child.

https://twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1616733253494259714

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 14:35

https://www.trethowans.com/insights/mother-jailed-for-lying-on-birth-certificate/#:~:text=Deliberately%20giving%20false%20details%20on,an%20amendment%20to%20the%20register.

"Deliberately giving false details on a birth certificate is a criminal offence under the Perjury Act 1911 and is punishable by imprisonment. If however, a genuine mistake has been made, it is possible to seek an amendment to the register. In this particular case, if the mother had made a genuine mistake as to the identity of the natural father and it later transpired that her partner was not the baby’s father, she could apply to have his name removed from the certificate by providing evidence by way of an approved DNA test or court order. He would also then lose parental responsibility."

Mother jailed for lying on birth certificate - Trethowans

News has recently emerged of a mother having been sentenced to eight months imprisonment for lying about the identity of her baby’s father on the birth

https://www.trethowans.com/insights/mother-jailed-for-lying-on-birth-certificate/#:~:text=Deliberately%20giving%20false%20details%20on,an%20amendment%20to%20the%20register.

Deadringer · 16/07/2023 14:39

Can same sex couples marry in Italy? If so the birth mother and her spouse should be listed as the parents, as has always been done with heterosexual married couples. If they are not married I suppose it complicates things depending on italian law, but the most important thing imo is that the birth mother is on the birth certificate.