Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

Well of course they should. So how does that work in your world? Every single instance is voted on by all the users? Or do we use the traditional democratic system where we vote for a manifesto to be enacted by elected representatives? In which case, I guess we will see what happens in the GE next year.

Because I trust the medical professionals to do what is in the best interests of the person they are treated. It is not for me, a lay person, to interfere.

A pp said ‘I don’t need to be a vet to know what a dog is’. No, you don’t. But I wouldn’t accept your advice on how to treat its broken leg.

I think it’s unfair to insist people change communally and think the ire and campaigning should be to get that changed, not single out another user. Is it unfair that the girls are not getting to shower? No. But I don’t blame the TW

But that doesn’t mean all transwomen are rapists, does it?

No one here has said that.

We're saying that there's more than enough evidence to indicate that transwomen aren't all nice and that it's impossible for women to tell the decent TWs from the ones who might assault them, so it's perfectly reasonable and rational to insist that women-only space should apply to biological women only. And that, as for the last few hundred years, men in women's women-only spaces are treated as transgressors.

Great so you agree women get a say.

If just two women say they do not want it and one man says they do, he’s outnumbered.

On that basis I think we can head off any males in sports and spaces.

If you’re relying on a GE overriding that I doubt things will improve. Women will still say no and pressure will grow in other ways.

This can only be posted on almost total ignorance of the controversy within the medical profession as to the appropriate treatment of minors claiming gender distress, the clear co-morbidity within this population with other problems (notably ASD, worry about sexuality, and childhood trauma) and the emerging trend, in Europe at least, away from intervention, recognising the lack of evidence base to support it.
I can’t take it seriously, I’m sorry.

Is it unfair that the girls are not getting to shower? No. But I don’t blame the TW
Ok, so let's say we campaign for cubicles (which the girls don't want by the way - they want the same camaraderie in the changing rooms that the men get but hey ho, who cares what girls want?) what should we actually do? Allow the TW to use the female changing rooms and disadvantage all the females or let them have their changing room back? If the former, please explain why one person's wants trump what ALL the women and girls want.

And the women, like me, who don’t agree with you? How are we counted? Are all women and men polled? Or just current users? How often do you repeat the vote to take into account new users?

Why would the TW using a cubicle in the women’s changing room disadvantage the girls? Thing is, j think we’re coming at this from different angles. I don’t inherently think that having a penis makes you a predator, whether or not you want to live as a man or a woman. So I don’t have an issue with mixed spaces (as long as they offer individual privacy). You feel differently, and so see things with more suspicion.

I think it’s pretty unfair to say ‘who gives a fuck what the girls think’ - of course I care, but I also care what the TW wants. Everyone deserves to live their lives as they want to, with respect and tolerance.

Female only spaces are for females. We’re allowed to have our own things, without having to worry whether that upsets a male. Or we should be. There is no reason why what the TW thinks should be our problem.

There may be a small amount of females possibly but I doubt women in professional sports would vote with you.

Actually on any level if you were to ask are you ok with males being here and this being mixed sex I’d be surprised if the vote was a yes anywhere. In refuges, prisons, changing rooms, sports I’d say it would be a no.

It is currently the case that males have access because they are prioritised over women and women are secondary to a tiny minority.

Eh? There are no cubicles. That's the point. Why do you think the TW should be able to change with the girls but what the gorls want doesn't matter? They don't want to change with anyone with a penis. They find it embarrassing. I don't blame them.

That was a reply to @Bingbangbongbash btw! And I didn't say anything about the TW being a predator. Strange that you should mention that! So, to be clear, you think that it is fine for all the women to not have anywhere to change and this is less important than the TW to change in the female changing rooms? I'm sorry but I just can't see why the TW couldn't change elsewhere??

its very clear you don’t believe TW are W and you are of the ‘it’s a man in a dress’ group. I don’t share these beliefs. Some of us females are happy to share.

We aren’t ever going to agree and that’s ok. We live in a democracy and whatever the majority decides, I’m ok with.

We live in a democracy and whatever the majority decides, I’m ok with.
So, in my real life example, you're happy with the majority (the girls) having their own change room?

i am not sure you, or anyone else, should be arrogating to yourself the right to dispense with long standing social rules which provide for single sex spaces because you do not feel the need for them.
leave them for those that do.

I’m confused. I thought you mean ‘say we campaign for cubicles’ as in ‘say we get cubicles, what then?’

like I said, campaign for cubicles. Until then, each person can decide what they want to do with regards changing and showering.

And by the way - of course trans women are not women. That’s the point of being trans. Implicit in that status is you not being the sex you wish to “transition” to.

Actually on any level if you were to ask are you ok with males being here and this being mixed sex I’d be surprised if the vote was a yes anywhere. In refuges, prisons, changing rooms, sports I’d say it would be a no.

It is currently the case that males have access because they are prioritised over women and women are secondary to a tiny minority.

Correct on both counts.

Decide for you. Don’t do away with single sex for me. I don’t consent.

like I said, campaign for cubicles. Until then, each person can decide what they want to do with regards changing and showering.

So any man should be able to use any female space?

This can only be posted on almost total ignorance of the controversy within the medical profession as to the appropriate treatment of minors claiming gender distress, the clear co-morbidity within this population with other problems (notably ASD, worry about sexuality, and childhood trauma) and the emerging trend, in Europe at least, away from intervention, recognising the lack of evidence base to support it.
I can’t take it seriously, I’m sorry.

Quite.

I think it’s fine for the sports club to decide their own rules. If they have decided to be inclusive, you can decide whether to campaign for change, in whatever form, or to find somewhere that assigns changing rooms according to biological sex.

As for the predator thing - don’t be silly. You know that you are suggesting this TW is someone to suspect.

under a rock for the last three years or just a guardian reader?
amounts to the same thing I guess

I’m not. But if we’re having a vote, my vote is as valid as yours. Or are only people who agree with you allowed to vote? That doesn’t seem very fair