Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

Until then, each person can decide what they want to do with regards changing and showering.
The girls have decided they want to keep their space but unfortunately one male is prioritised over 20 females. How is this democracy? The TW could easily use the other changing room but doesn't want to. How is this fair? What message does it send to our girls that their discomfort is not as important as what ONE male wants? Out of interest, would you be comfortable showering with a male?

Service providers are bound by the EA 2010. Failure to provide single sex services might, depending on circumstances, amount to indirect sex discrimination.
i always find it really funny how the guardian readers suddenly go all “private companies can do what they like” on this stuff. They can’t. EQUALITY ACT EXISTS NUMBSKULLS. Passed by a labour government.

And those who have transitioned? Are they now women? Of course not, in your world. As I said, we aren’t going to agree so I think I’ll crack on with my day.

As I’ve said, you do what you like. But don’t take the provision away from those who
understand the need for it. It’s not hard.

Hey, I thought we weren’t going for ad hominem attacks?

Come on, now. You told me you’re better than that.

no, of course they aren’t. Being a woman is a matter of biology. If you think it’s a matter of something else, it’s on you to tell us what.

I’m pretty sure I didn’t

It’s an echo chamber. If you walked up to 95% of the British public right now, in a town centre they would tell you men can’t give birth.

I would say only a tiny fringe of the British public truly believe that actual men give birth.

As for the predator thing - don’t be silly. You know that you are suggesting this TW is someone to suspect.
No, I'm not actually, not in this case. I'll tell you why- up until last year this person used the male changing rooms and has said that they had encountered no problems. I don't think they're a predator at all as in this club everyone knows them. I think they have been told by people like you that it is their right to use female spaces and that what girls want is unimportant. I'm sorry but I find your attitude sickening. This is a real life situation, not a hypothetical. Why do women and girls matter so little to you? Why do you think it is more important to give someone who has lived 49 years as a man the chance to shower with girls?

The serious point being that such ignorance of what’s been going on in one indulging in such sententious finger wagging is pretty damn inexcusable.

@Bingbangbongbash You didn't answer my question: Out of interest, would you be comfortable showering with a male?

And those who have transitioned? Are they now women?

No, of course not. What even is "transitioning"? Surgery? Hormones? Changing your "pronouns"?

You yourself said you know as a scientist that people can't change sex, so what do you think a "woman" is, if not a biological female? Why do you feel it's a name that should be given to a group of men, just because they fancy they have a "woman" essence? Where does this "woman" idea come from, if it isn't being female?

Since you mentioned trauma I’m interested in why you recognise that for a male over a female given the choice

I explained my position above. Someone definitely told me off earlier for ad hominem attacks. Perhaps it wasn’t you, but I agree to engage in good faith, which I’ve been doing. If you don’t want to do that - starting with an apology for your rock / guardian reader shit - I’m happy to leave it here.

Why should I apologise? You have demonstrated lamentable ignorance of the clinical controversy and weak evidence base, while hectoring everyone else. Which is absolutely mirrored in guardian discussion (or lack thereof) of these issues.
Perhaps it’s you who should apologise? Ignorant people shouldn’t lecture those who have bothered to inform themselves.

Also, waiting to hear what the criteria for defining womanhood are, if they aren’t biological?

No, I wouldn’t. Nor do I want to shower with women. I don’t want to shower with anyone I don’t know. I’ve said this already.

As for not caring about women and girls - that’s not my position. I can disagree with your stance and still care. I’ve told you that I think it sounds unfair - but my solution wouldn’t be to exclude the TW, it would be to find a solution where everyone gets privacy. I can’t fix your club situation, and I don’t really know what ‘right’ answer you want from me.

Now someone please answer mine from earlier re AMA / AAP saying that the anti trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youngsters. Is that ok?

And another one - is it right that women who want to be sterilised young are often refused treatment because they might change their minds about having kids one day?

And this is why no one wants to discuss the trans issue on Mumsnet. As soon as anyone disagrees with trans = erasing women, you become nasty. We’re back to the point we were at a few pages ago. ----

It’s not disagreement that’s the issue. It’s the unearned superior attitude coupled with ignorance of the background that’s the problem. As I’ve made abundantly clear. This site is full of women who have bothered to inform themselves. Chat shit, expect to get called on it.

wow, you seem really angry. Maybe have a cuppa.

Cubicles do absolutely fuck all to protect the dignity of undressed women and GIRLS - children.
Women and girls have the right to be able to undress in a communal area with other women should they wish to. They also have the right to use a cubicle knowing that the person in the cubicle next door has a female body.

Transwomen are welcome to use cubicles. In the male changing area. Or mixed sex area, as the other people using that area are using it in the full knowledge there are mixed sex users around them.

I have plenty of female Muslim and Sikh friends who would categorically not be able to undress in the 'company' of people with penises. Men. Regardless of whether it was them or the penis person behind a fucking cubicle door or not. It is still not acceptable to their faith.
They need to be in a different room entirely.

The upshot potentially being that women of these faiths should forego exercise or be unable to partake in social activities completely is disgusting.

That's before we've even started on rape or sexual assault victims. But you know, given the penises are behind a cubicle door, it's all FINE. No trauma to be seen or relieved here.
Other than the obvious trauma being experienced by poor men who don't give a fuck about anyone else but themselves.

It tends to be smug, privileged women who don't have the imagination to see why letting a group of males who are frequently resentful of women, a proportion of whom believe that women are merely the background to their particular sexual fetish, into situations where women are undressed and vulnerable, isn't a good thing for women and girls. And it tends to be poorer, more vulnerable women, not them, who suffer most as a result of their virtue signalling and pandering to this ideology.

The whims of one male, or a handful, should not trump the privacy, dignity and safety of many women and girls. Anyone who thinks they do, is sexist.

I wasn’t the one who started the stroppy demands for apologies, sweetheart.

I don’t really know what ‘right’ answer you want from me
I want to know why one person's wishes are more important than (at least( 20 people's wishes. Because it sounds like you have some pretty ingrained misogyny there.

Now someone please answer mine from earlier re AMA / AAP saying that the anti trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youngsters. Is that ok?
What anti trans laws are you referring to? Because if it's about restricting access to hormones and surgery, there wasn't an increase in suicide before they became commonplace so no, I don't believe it's a problem.

Yeah, I was mixing you up with another poster who suggested only those with nothing to say would use ad hominem attacks. Beginning to see her point. As you were, sweetcheeks.