Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

I can't believe some of the shite that radio and also tv news broadcast. A man cannot give birth to a child as he doesn't have a womb. I'm sick of seeing articles showing a man claiming to breastfeed. We live in a weird world right now. Maybe it's always been weird and I just never realised.

I understand, you have very strong views but don't have the confidence, or perhaps the ability, to defend them under scrutiny. That's okay, I can respect that. Many people don't particularly like that feeling of embarrassment when their arguments are pulled apart.

The issue for me is when males demand access to women’s sports and spaces women get to say how they feel about that.

So those who feel they have more balanced and reasonable arguments, if they could say how they think that would work in practise we might see something not as yet resolved

There’s also a battle over language, who gets to define what. There’s no real way to compromise

Coincidentally, Socrates "I don't do cults", I have just today been listening to Janja Lalich being interviewed on the Savage Minds substack:
https://savageminds.substack.com/p/janja-lalich?utm_source=podcast-email%2Csubstack&publication_id=65949&post_id=105974561&utm_medium=email#details

"Delving into the current maelstrom of gender ideology within the west, Lalich observes the current upheaval over this ideology, comparing this with other ideological movements like QAnon, where it is difficult to have rational conversations with the adherents of these ideologies. Characterising the discourse around gender ideology as a “cult mindset,” Lalich notes that the real harm of gender ideology is how it is gaining vast social acceptance while isolating those voices who speak against this orthodoxy, comparing this ideology to McCarthyism during the 1950s where a tremendous political backlash similarly caused people to lose their families, careers, communities, and lives."

where it is difficult to have rational conversations with the adherents of these ideologies. Characterising the discourse around gender ideology as a “cult mindset,”

IIRC (some time since I read their playbook) Denton's acknowledged that trans ideology would be very difficult to persuade the general public to go along with, so they suggested refusing to debate and accusing those who resisted of being hateful etc. Socrates and Bingbang and all the others failing to engage, accusing us of attacking them (exterminating them, even) and telling us to talk to the hand (so retro!) and shut the door behind us etc are only doing what TRAs have always done. Which is avoid answering women's questions at all cost because they expose the emptiness that lies behind trans ideology. There's just a little man with a megaphone behind the curtain.

And now we're free to use words like autogynephilia and we have Ministry of Justice data and Lia Thomas and Isla Bryson/ Adam Graham et al it's really, really hard for them to defend the situation. They are defending the indefensible. They've been badly conned and like most people who've fallen for a scam they don't want to admit it — even to themselves.

Yes, Pluvia, and otherwise intelligent people have been conned into thinking they should tolerate the intolerable in the name of "progress".

So for instance if a transwoman feels more 'authentic' by breastfeeding, they think why not? They are women, right? Other women induce lactation, right?And feel a warm self-congratulatory glow of virtue for backing something that in the real world is glaringly unacceptable and fetishistic.

Difficult women center the child's needs and ask awkward questions which must be shut down.

I can assure you miss Jones never crossed paths with the probation service but she never broke the law.

I can assure you miss Jones never crossed paths with the probation service but she never broke the law.

And...? Kindly, it's unclear what point you're trying to make with this example. There are old-fashioned transsexuals who live quietly and don't break the law. Agreed. And there are (because we have the evidence) plenty of people who identify as transgender who do. Transwomen prisoners have the same offending rates as men, because they are men. Every cell of their body will contain XY cells.

I despair and am sorry to be unkind, but justasking that was a random inane statement delivered as proof. Proof of what, is unclear.

sports - not sure, evidence seems inconclusive at the moment and dependant on lots of factors like whether they’ve been through male puberty. So I guess right now, I’m leaning towards no, with an open mind regarding those athletes who transitioned before going through male puberty.

prisons - case by case basis. Someone who has been a trans person for a long time and predating their crime, and assuming their crime isn’t of a sexual nature, I can see an argument for them being placed in a prison that aligns with their gender identity. Prisoners who have committed crimes of a sexual or misogynistic nature, no. Same as those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process of. However, they should be offered the same health and mental support as anyone else and their case reviewed should they then fit a criteria to be moved.

Toilets etc - no problem with mixed sex loos except for men’s loos usually being gross so I’d rather have female only ones for that reason alone.

Changing rooms - I’m not down with communal changing rooms at all, so would rather have private cubicles. Again, no issue if they are mixed.

Compelled pronoun use - don’t know what you mean. If you mean using the pronoun someone wants to be referred to with, I’m totally happy with that. Same as if someone changed their name to Lollypop Head - if that’s what they want me to call them, I will. If you mean people being forced to declare their pronouns - less convinced by this, because I think it forces people to choose and I’m not that keen on people having to declare themselves one way or another. I wouldn’t ask someone their sexuality, so it’s non of my business what gender they align with. However, I do think people should be offered the chance to state their preferred pronouns and the respect of others using them.

what do you think about the AMA & AAP saying that the anti-trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youths?

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

why is me glibly saying words to the effect of ‘maybe your debating skills would be better if you read some proper papers’ an ad hominem attack, but ‘you remind me of jolyon (inference being they hate jolyon) and ‘bless your heart (inference= you’re a bit naive) not ad hominem?

have you ever spent any time with a trans person?

Yeah, I am literally quaking in my boots! You keep on with the delusions of grandeur though.

prisons - case by case basis. Someone who has been a trans person for a long time and predating their crime, and assuming their crime isn’t of a sexual nature, I can see an argument for them being placed in a prison that aligns with their gender identity. Prisoners who have committed crimes of a sexual or misogynistic nature, no. Same as those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process of. However, they should be offered the same health and mental support as anyone else and their case reviewed should they then fit a criteria to be moved.

Thank you for that. This sounds like a position you have thought through, and most of it I can get behind. I get stuck at " [no to] those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process" because I can't understand a society that would force someone to permenantly alter their genitals (transition) as a condition to granting a right. In any case I am told many TW have no surgical interventions at all on their genitals, and either do not want them or are on waiting lists.

But that leads to the question, "what do we mean by transition?" You call it a process so l assume you mean reassignment surgery, so inversion of the penis etc on top of hormones. But I'm not sure that any two people saying "transition" are imaging the same thing.

have you ever spent any time with a trans person?

Yes. My brother.

But to be clear, I do not think men should be in women's prisons, although I understand your position.

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

I believe it was used as an example why no TW sex offender should be put in women's prisons, and you have said that yourself.

What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

Where shall we start? 200+ trans-identified men in prisons at any one time in recent years. The numbers fluctuate. Where shall we start? 42% of transgender prisoners are in jail for sexual crimes: 45 of them are rapists.

Here's a site that records all the crimes, including murders and sexual offences, on record as having been committed by those under the trans umbrella:

https://transcrimeuk.com/category/violent-offences/murderattempted-murder/

So I guess right now, I’m leaning towards no, with an open mind regarding those athletes who transitioned before going through male puberty.
That's the sort of thing that sounds reasonable...until you realise it means imposing life changing "treatments" on children. Why do you think that's acceptable?

But that doesn’t mean all transwomen are rapists, does it?

I can also think of many reasons that transgender people are represented more highly in prisons. I think fetish / sexual deviancy is one, but I also think socioeconomic factors and societal issues play a big part. In the US, for example, trans women are much more likely to end up falling into prostitution and drug use because they are shunned by conservative society and find it hard to work outside of sex work. Add to that the difficulty of getting gender affirming surgery, and it’s not a surprise to me at all.

If society makes it hard for you to live as a part of it, I understand why they end up on the fringes.

prisons - case by case basis
Again, sounds reasonable but anyone who claims to be a woman is evaluated as a woman. The result is that they are immediately judged to be low risk because women are low risk. Are you suggesting that trans women should be assessed according to their sex? I'm afraid that's transphobic.

Just looking at these responses on what’s in or out if anyone recognises you cannot change sex, which most do on this thread, then it’s arguments around whether to make a prison or changing room etc mixed sex or not

Do women get a say on whether they’d like single sex provision to stop?

I’m not down with communal changing rooms at all
But that's not going to happen is it? In the meantime, where do we change? In my daughter's athletics club a 50 year old TW has decided to change in the communal female changing room. There are no cubicles, not even in the showers. The girls/women are forgoing the showers and changing in their cars or going straight home. TW has complained! Do you honestly think this is fair?

These are all such good points and I really can’t believe that the wants of the trans person are put above the safety of babies.

It’s absolutely right to ban transgender surgeries for minors. The US medical opinion is out of step with the UK, Sweden, Finland, France and other countries which are recognising that the evidence base to support such drastic, life changing, irreversible interventions is simply not there.
It’s a pity it’s necessary, but if the greedy US doctors won’t self-regulate, there is no other option.

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?
I think you are referring to what I wrote although I'm not sure as you seem to have completely misunderstood 🤔. My point was no, we should not rely anecdotal evidence on either side we should rely on evidence. Luckily we have plenty of it and it shows that while many males (whatever their gender identity) are nice, enough of them (whatever their gender identity) are a threat to women to make it necessary to separate spaces where women are more vulnerable (prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc) by SEX.

I think I’ve been pretty clear that each person should be judged according to a variety of factors. I don’t think someone should be moved from a male prison to a female one just because they decide one day to live as a woman. I also don’t think they should be forced to remain in a male wing forever - they should be supported as appropriate to transition if that’s their wish, and all necessary steps should be taken to protect them from other inmates, and vice versa.

If that’s transphobic, well I’m sorry. I don’t think I’m transphobic but it’s also not for me to decide as I’m not trans. I wouldn’t accept someone telling me what racism is, so I don’t want to define someone else’s trauma.

When you talk about not defining a person’s trauma do you mean that for women too, who ask for single sex spaces to be preserved?